Behaviour in a Secondary School

[Corridorchaos]

Changed name for this post (been here for years). I have worked in a support role in a state secondary school for the past couple of years. The behaviour has plummeted in the last few months and staff are leaving in droves. Before I also jump ship (partly due to awful behaviour but also because we’re massively understaffed), what does bad behaviour look like in your secondary please? And how is it dealt with? Thanks for any feedback.

Also plummeting massively at my school. I think the issue is the SLT have adopted a 'restorative' approach, which appears to me to involve giving masses of love and attention to the naughty kids while the rest of the kids suffer. SLT have at least acknowledged behaviour is going down the pan but it's now a tortuous round of 'behaviour working parties' when it's not rocket science, we just need to reinstate firm boundaries and zero tolerance for non compliance and disrespect.

Yes it is poor. Main issue is lack of parental support and fact that heads are scared to exclude. It is also the case that there is not enough respect for teachers from pupils, SLT and parents. The line in the sand has to be can the teacher teach the other students effectively? If some students are interfering with this then the student needs to be removed and sanctioned. I think that more money for classroom assistants would also help.

Thanks both. ValancyRedfern - completely the same as our school. Honestly, a core group of poorly behaved students seem to rule the school, constantly AWOL roaming the corridors and trashing the toilets. They are excluded for a couple of days then come back and on continues the cycle. Our isolation room is considered by them a bunking off space. A colleague was told to ‘f off b*’ this week with not a metaphorical slap on the wrist for the student. There is so much poor behaviour there is no time for the beloved restorative practices. The behaviour of these students is now rubbing off on others because they see that there is no consequence for what is effectively rebellion.

Yes very similar here. Isolation is seen as preferable to lessons and no time for endless restorative conversations (which have zero effect anyway). SLT are generally less experienced than middle leaders. Middle leaders get the best behaviour but anything that we need to escalate isn't dealt with at all. The repeat offenders know that escalation actually makes for an easier ride. Had a student kiss her teeth and me twice and walk away from me when I was still talking to her (telling her to take off her coat), the Head was stood right next to me and did nothing. Until that changes I think we're doomed...

Absolutely doomed. Inexperienced slt
Older teachers priced out. Downward spiral

Bumping my own thread… Another awful day today, and that’s with some of the worst offenders temporarily excluded. Soul destroying…

Yeah absolutely insane since Christmas especially. SLT good but a bit bewildered. Not sure what the answer is really. Im looking to get out but don't know what my next move will be.

Same here, not sure if I am reassured that it’s the same elsewhere or not! @ValancyRedfern I could have written your post - our new, inexperienced Head is very softly softly, to the extent that it leaves everyone else unsure where the ‘line’ is and feeling undermined when they challenge. On the plus side, truancy seems to be very high

We just don’t have the staff to deal with everything that’s going on - so many people have left and new members can’t be recruited. Pretty much everyone is looking for new positions. Even supply teachers can’t wait to leave at the end of the day! Our head is utterly useless - proper Nero fiddling while Rome burns situation.

Staff do care and they challenge poor behaviour but the students feel they are untouchable and don’t give a damn about consequences. They don’t care if sent to the isolation room or given detention (that’s if parents permit it!!). The worst offenders get given short term exclusions then come back and carry on with the same behaviours. They are so disrespectful. I’m so embarrassed when visitors witness hordes of swearing students prowling the corridors, messing about.

The situation just feels so hopeless. I’m ashamed of how we are failing the students who want to learn. There is constant disruption and all the experienced staff have left.

Yes I feel mortified for the students who want to learn in my ks3 classes at the minute because it's a disaster. My own kids are only primary age but I'm horrified at the thought of them moving to secondary while it's like this. Not to mention our catchment schools are even worse than where I work. 🤦🏻‍♀️

I've had an awful week too. Constant low level disruption. Students arriving late deliberately and then causing issues. Student having no equipment that start work with. Students calling out, ride when reprimanded. Poor parental support. Little Jack cannot do after school detentions as he has to excuse, excuse, excuse. Students lying when you call them out on talking, chewing, being rude. I was told to eff off this week. Student in isolation for afternoon. Students never complete homework. Poor prep for exams when we are accountable for their results in August. Students roaming corridors not coming to lessons. Students playing the system and lack of staffing means they fall through the gaps of the detention system. High levels of mental health issues in kids. Massive back log of undiagnosed SEND issues thanks to the pandemic. It's an utter shit show

Familiar.

I would say the biggest issue in my school is internal truancy, often accompanied by lots of lies about where they have been, what they were doing. Basically, some students don't want to be in class, but for whatever reason they do want to be at school. It's a massive safeguarding issue and also often leads to lots of vandalism etc of toilets as this is where they hide out. We really don't want to go down the route of locking toilets during lessons but I can see why some schools have resorted to this.

We do have a good behaviour system where disruptive students are removed to "reflection" and so on, which works well - except for these students who are internal truants - some of them will just walk out of reflection, or actually prefer reflection to being in lessons. Reflection is boring, most students don't like it, but I suppose it is less pressure than being in a class where you don't understand the content and can't access the work because you've been truanting all week. If they don't "pass" reflection it gets extended for a day, and then there is a day's suspension, but this just leads to students being more behind etc.

I think the system works well for about 90% of our students, and behaviour in lessons is generally fine if a bit apathetic at times. For the 5% or so who are persistent internal truants it isn't working, and I do think SLT accept this, but don't know where to go next.

I'd also say there's about 5% or so of students with serious semh/sen needs which sometimes lead to explosive outbursts (mostly in lower school). They genuinely can't control their behaviour at all times, so a behaviour system isn't relevant to them. But what they need is appropriate education, which in some cases may not be in a mainstream school, or appropriate support eg1:1 ta, but lack of funding and lack of tas means we can't necessarily provide this. Especially in y7 and 8 we have a number of students who got a lot of support in primary which we can't replicate at secondary easily. We're looking at plans like nurture groups for next year but this will push class sizes across the year to 34+ (some classes are this big already) which doesn't seem fair and will likely lead to more students falling through the cracks.

To add as well, this situation is still way better than my previous school, which I left last year, which had all the problems you describe, plus a lack of teaching staff so some students could come in for a day and have 3/4 lessons with supply teachers, so when you had them last thing and actually wanted them to do some work...

It meant the behaviour system never worked, and could never work because it could never be consistently enforced. And SLT and middle leaders spent so much time sorting out behaviour for supply staff, if you were permeant staff, the expectation really was that you just got on with it.

Same problems out west where I supply teach. Less of a teacher, more a controller /safeguarder, and failing at that too. Complicated reasons, and none of the available sanctions work.

Same here. The school is starting to crack down on lesson lateness with a second bell after lesson start and automatic detentions the same day if late. It has helped a bit. Some pupils seem to be outside the system though. It seems we are not to be surprised if certain pupils never make it to lessons or just walk out of them. The same ones will wreck lessons, vandalise equipment or set off the fire alarm.

We can manage better at the moment because of the gained time. I dread September. One change in September though is to shorten lunch to help contain poor behaviour. I think it will be gruelling days for staff with a shorter lunchtime.

The staff in the school where I work currently only cope partly because the break time is longer than most; 20 mins morning and 50 minutes lunch. The first 4 lessons are still tough though. I've stayed though as it's the only school I've been in where staff actually communicate in the staff room, and I've been listened to and helped.
I've had 30 minute lunches in some places (rationale behaviour too) and the day is horrible. No effective time for clubs or detentions or, just having a much needed pause. It doesn't solve the discipline problem either; just adds other problems.
Short breaks are gruelling for all; and especially in supply where you are often flying by the seat of your pants!
I wonder what's going on in education; behaviour management across the country really needs proper monitoring and rethinking without targeting individual teachers. Too many currently in vogue sanctions seem pointless from what I've seen.

It's finally happened, I've become that teacher who sits in the staffroom moaning to anyone who'll listen about the fact that society is about to collapse unless we get a grip on behaviour in schools.

For context, I work in a lovely school where most of the lessons are uninterrupted and a centralised detention system means that on the odd occasion I have to pull someone up they are dealt with swiftly. What I'm struggling with is poor attendance (whole school sub 90%), mental health of kids meaning even if they are in school they are in counselling sessions or pastoral most of the day and then a general apathy amongst the rest. There seem to be so many high level "safeguarding" cases that SLT are virtually AWOL - no CPD, no middle manager meetings, no guidance/ongoing support. They are quite often so overwhelmed they make promises to children and parents that undermine staff and the lack of monitoring is leading to huge inconsistencies across the school in how policy is implemented.

I feel a little as if I'm staring in to the abyss. The moment the kids realise that we are divided and that they really can get away with anything, as everyone is too busy to care, we are going to be in real trouble. For now, they seem content to push boundaries with uniform and lack of equipment, for the most part. Although year 11 were vile in their final few weeks, snapping selfies on their phones, defiance and general 'you can't make me' comments.

We've already started to loose colleagues, over 10% of the work force and we've struggled to fill the gaps, often resorting to TAs to take on the roles. Some classes have been merged so up to 40 children are being taught by one member of staff in core subjects.

To top it all off, the building is crumbling around our ears. In summer we abandon any concept of uniform as temperatures soar and in winter we teach in coats. I thought I could see it out to retirement - I'm not so sure as the government constantly push retirement age.

Creamcrackered10 I raise your 10%. By the end of this academic year, we’ll have lost half the staff population (literally 50%) - I’m going to be one of them, and even the head has now thrown in the towel! I echo your fears about society, I really do. A lot of the blame has been put on to our head, however, I’m not convinced things will change - there are just so many challenges; at this stage it is firefighting.

Oh this is the first time I've posted on one of these threads. I've been teaching 13 years and since Christmas it's gone mental. I'm on my third school in 2years and they all have terrible behaviour. Even the private school I worked in was seeing increases in poor behaviour! I saw racism, a fight, a mirror wrenched off a wall!

I'm back in state school and, again, behaviour is dire. I'm so confused! My school is really trying to put firm boundaries back in but some of it is too softly softly and the kids know exactly how to take advantage.

I'm definitely leaving. And I'm absolutely seriously wondering how I will send my own kids to secondary school when it's so dire.

I've worked as a supply cover supervisor/TA continuously for the last 2 years in secondary schools, I could write a book on all the difficulties I've faced with rude, entitled, disrespectful and vile teenagers and absolutely ineffective behaviour sanctions used by these schools. I totally second what other posters have said here about schools giving love and attention to the most poorly behaved students. I was called a f*king idiot by a year 9 girl, who was removed from my lesson by the pastoral team, but also given a hug by them when she ran crying to them for sympathy. One of the staff even said to her "aw don't let it ruin your day love" after telling her that she would be put in internal exclusion for an hour for swearing at me. I was absolutely baffled! A week later, same pupil accused me of touching her while I was holding the door open and she walked into my class and brushed past my arm. She then in a threatening way shouted "who the f*k do you think you are touching." Same attention seeking vile girl repeated her pattern of crocodile tears when I called for pastoral. She totally denied everything and they almost believed her over me, thank God there were 2 other students that spoke up as witnesses and said I hadn't actually touched her, and she had indeed sworn at me. I've had other nasty experiences too with year 9/10 lads trying to intimidate me, making sex noises as they were walking behind me in corridors just to get a rise out of me, pupils trying to make up false accusations against me, and 2 year 10 girls whispering insulting and demeaning comments about me to each other during a lesson when I was supporting another student as a TA, and starring at me/trying to intimidate me. Even the class teacher was mortified by why these girls wanted a scrap with me, when I had very little interaction with them. As it turned out, one of them became very vengeful towards me after I told her head of year about her bullying a few year 7s, she just had it in for me after that. How did the school deal with this girl- they removed me as a TA from all the lessons that she was in, and replaced me with another TA to support the student I was working with. Long story short, nearly all these badly behaved pupils have faced very minimal and absolutely ineffective sanctions. I am DONE with secondary schools.

I am part of the wellbeing team of a secondary school and will also be leaving at the end of this week, after 7 years.

However, I am not leaving because of the students. I will miss the students. I am leaving because of the toxic culture of the school, lead by a power hungry discipline driven leadership team.

I have received zero training in the 7 years I've been at the school, and yet, I am constantly having students with severe mental health issues being referred to me. This has got noticeably worse after Covid, I guess because of an increase in mental health issues, camhs waiting lists, etc.

But it is insane that parents expect school to address their kids' mental health issues. Schools are educational institutions and as such they invest in teaching, not mental health. I don't disagree that schools are well placed to provide mental health support, but that's the theory, not the reality.

Parents out there whose kids feel suicidal, are self harming, hear voices, have hallucinations, are severely depressed.... Next time school offers you a 'referral with one of our members of the wellbeing team', you might want to actually enquire what training/qualifications those members of the wellbeing team have, and in what way are they equipped to support your kid, because in my case and every single member of the team I have been working in, the answer is none.

I can second all that said by Mars2020 above. I'm supply too over last year, after teaching 21 years.
Sanctions soft and ineffective; kids just laughing at us. SLT all chasing/ phoning about trivial complaints (while any serious issues get lost in the madness), pupil's accounts of incidents taken more seriously than teacher's.
Told to f* off twice last week in a lesson and outcome is I just need to be more sympathetic to the pupil. I was also removed from one class as one pupil took a dislike to me; because I was the only one attempting some sort of [mild] discipline with them and she didn't like it.
We're teaching children that there's always an excuse rather than giving them much needed resilience. There'll be many more sad posts like the previous one if we fail to do this. I think it stems from a societal issue; not just in education.
Surprised it's not in the media more; seems if more staff leave it's going to reach a tipping point, not unlike the mess the NHS are in with the shortage of doctors.

@Berryll you have my sympathies hun, secondary schools are such toxic environments to work in, pupils treating us like dirt on their shoe, being all cocky thinking they don't have to show us any basic respect because we are just supply and not their real teachers, and worse SLT at these schools downplaying our appalling treatment from students, or worse even believing the students account over ours, or blaming us for our behaviour management skills. They just expect us to tolerate this abuse and humiliating behaviour and get on with it. I've heard a few supply teachers saying they are very reluctant to ask for help from pastoral to remove the troublemakers from their lessons, their main concern being the school won't have them back if it looks like they can't cope with behaviour at the school. There is no real deterrent in place for pupils to show basic respect towards their teachers and even other students. I can totally relate to SLT siding with the feral, disrespectful pupils, always having an excuse to defend their very offensive and inappropriate behaviour, or instead of removing the verbally abusive and aggressive pupils from my cover lessons, SLT has taken then out for a few min to have a "word" then they get sent back into my lesson with SLT saying they are ready to behave themselves, only for the said student to restart their nonsense again, it's very undermining of our authority. Not to mention some SLT members can be condescending and dismissive towards us. They are ready to make a fuss though and hand out detentions/phone calls home over minor uniform issues like a pupil forgetting their blazer or tie, or not having the right coloured pens, never mind the fact that the pupil could have threatened us or tried to intimidate or humiliate us, they'll let all that slide as long as their shirt is tucked in, and they've got the right coloured shoes on. You are right, this is a societal issue, a sign of the times. The NHS has a zero tolerance policy to protect its staff from verbal and physical abuse, abusive patients can be denied medical treatment and/or asked to leave the premises, and prosecuted if necessary. What protection do we as teachers/supply staff get? It's such a demoralising job most days, I'm trying to get out.

Internal truancy and persistent disruption should result in parents being fined . That will sort it out nicely . But it would need to be rolled out nationally otherwise an school could face backlash