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Original poster

School Trip

24 replies

ChickenDhansak82 · 02/01/2023 16:47

I have organised a school trip. It is 1 school day leaving in the morning then 3 non school days. 2 members of staff (1 male 1 female).
A pupil going on the trip is being rather demanding at the last minute and has also had several issues. They still want to go.
For various reasons, we need to be seen to be "inclusive" by allowing them to go but I am also very uncomfortable with them going.
Is there anywhere I can seek advice or discuss this? I'm not in a union (I know - I ought to be, but am not at the moment!)
I cannot give too much detail online I'm afraid.

OP posts:
Postapocalypticcowgirl · 02/01/2023 17:14

Is there anyone at work you're comfortable discussing the situation with? Or else, join a union today, and raise the issue with them? Do you have a union rep at work for any of the unions, as they may be willing to advise you informally?

Otherwise, depending on the issues involved, is there a charity for this issue e.g. disability (?) that could advise on best practice.

If you've got safeguarding concerns, then is your DSL sympathetic?

good96 · 02/01/2023 17:24

Who is the EVC in your school? Could you liaise with them around the protocol for this.
Inclusion doesn’t come into it, if you’re genuinely concerned about a pupil who would cause issues on the trip… then the decision is that they don’t go.
Get your HT or Deputy to support you if pushback.

MrsHamlet · 02/01/2023 17:59

Overnight with only two staff? That would worry me.

And you absolutely should be in a union.

Original poster
ChickenDhansak82 · 02/01/2023 21:12

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 02/01/2023 17:14

Is there anyone at work you're comfortable discussing the situation with? Or else, join a union today, and raise the issue with them? Do you have a union rep at work for any of the unions, as they may be willing to advise you informally?

Otherwise, depending on the issues involved, is there a charity for this issue e.g. disability (?) that could advise on best practice.

If you've got safeguarding concerns, then is your DSL sympathetic?

That's a good idea. I know someone who used to be a union rep they might be able to help.

The pupils are age 16 & 17.

The pupil in question has made particular demands for the trip (e.g. own room) stating a detrimental and severe effect on their mental health as the reason. This is not feasible (I checked), so they have since changed their mind and dropped this particular demand. But... it's not the sort of thing you can suddenly change your mind about so either they lied about it, or we are going to have huge problems on the trip, hence my concern, to the point I feel that I want some sort of medical report on their mental health stating they are OK to travel. Do you think I am within my right to request that??

The whole thing is filling me with dread instead of looking forward to what should be a really interesting trip!

OP posts:
Original poster
ChickenDhansak82 · 02/01/2023 21:13

good96 · 02/01/2023 17:24

Who is the EVC in your school? Could you liaise with them around the protocol for this.
Inclusion doesn’t come into it, if you’re genuinely concerned about a pupil who would cause issues on the trip… then the decision is that they don’t go.
Get your HT or Deputy to support you if pushback.

Unfortunately this is way beyond what the EVC has ever dealt with!

OP posts:
MrsHamlet · 02/01/2023 22:06

I told our EVC that I refused to take a specific child on a trip (not overnight) without a personal risk assessment carried out by a qualified medical professional.
She said I couldn't do that because it was discrimination.
I said okay but I was going to cancel the trip.
I got my RA.

BUT I am the union rep. Please please please join a union before you go any further with this. I can only see problems ahead.

timetorefresh · 02/01/2023 23:11

Please join a union before you take kids on a residential trip! If anything went wrong you'd be in shit. Plus an overnight residential with only two staff seems crazy. What if something happens and one of you has to take a kid to hospital or something?!

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 03/01/2023 07:25

ChickenDhansak82 · 02/01/2023 21:12

That's a good idea. I know someone who used to be a union rep they might be able to help.

The pupils are age 16 & 17.

The pupil in question has made particular demands for the trip (e.g. own room) stating a detrimental and severe effect on their mental health as the reason. This is not feasible (I checked), so they have since changed their mind and dropped this particular demand. But... it's not the sort of thing you can suddenly change your mind about so either they lied about it, or we are going to have huge problems on the trip, hence my concern, to the point I feel that I want some sort of medical report on their mental health stating they are OK to travel. Do you think I am within my right to request that??

The whole thing is filling me with dread instead of looking forward to what should be a really interesting trip!

Show quote history

As others have said, do join a union today, just in case!

If there are significant mental health issues I assume the DSL is aware, or possibly the SENCo. Is there a plan for keeping the child safe in school? I would try to have a frank discussion with both, and see what they think the risks are, if any. If both say they feel there is no risk, I would want this confirmed in writing. Otherwise, perhaps one of them could do a specific risk assessment for the student and you can see if you can meet it or not? If you can't meet the risk assessment, the student can't come.

If the SENCo/DSL aren't aware of the student, I would still want one of them to write a risk assessment, and then they would presumably gather information from medical professionals etc.

Are the student's parents reasonable? Who is insisting you take the child along?

Original poster
ChickenDhansak82 · 03/01/2023 09:43

I think I will join a union. Is Edapt any good? They seem to be less political!

It is a trip abroad.

The pupil has not attended lessons for months, stating that being in a classroom is too traumatic for them. They made a very serious allegation against another pupil but didn't want to formalise the complaint, instead choosing to not come to lessons. The accused pupil has since finished school but this pupil will still not attend lessons as it is apparently too traumatic for them.

They live with a carer and the carer wrote a very long list of needs and requirements that we were not made aware of when they initially booked a place.

The school seems to feel obliged to take them as they "tick many boxes", so if we didn't take them it might seem as though we are discriminating. The carer is the type to sue the school...

I will look at joining a union and seek their advice, and I am going to express in writing to the school that I do not feel it is safe to take this pupil.

I was really looking forward to this trip until a month ago!

OP posts:
QueenMabs · 03/01/2023 10:15

Is the trip imminent?

I think you are well within your rights to not take the student.

There needs to be a safeguarding referral, a positive handing plan and a risk assessment made.

Given those circumstances i would feel the student would not be consider a suitable candidate to take on a overseas trip.

Is there any record of this student's needs before the trip?

You need to speak to the DSL and the headteacher. If they insist you take the pupil, put your concerns in writing to them and confirm that you have been instructed by them that student needs to participate. Also contact the union so there is a record of this.

Piggywaspushed · 03/01/2023 17:19

OP, why are there only two members of staff going on the trip??

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 03/01/2023 18:18

I would join a union that has a rep in your school, personally.

Given the needs that have been expressed, I think you would be well within your rights not to take this student on the trip without a specific risk assessment for that student.

I would also state that given the likelyhood of this student being unable to participate in activities (as they cannot manage the normal school day), you will need another member of staff to come on the trip in order to supervise them in these circumstances. If the school are so desperate for them to go, then presumably they will fund the additional costs involved.

The requirement is to make reasonable adjustments. You cannot meet their needs on the trip, therefore, they can't come.

timetorefresh · 03/01/2023 19:29

If the student hasn't been in school for months then it seems reasonable that they can't attend the residential. I think the school would have clear grounds to remove them.

UsingChangeofName · 06/01/2023 18:06

I'd like to see your RA for taking pupils abroad for 4 days with only 2 members of staff, tbh.

Original poster
ChickenDhansak82 · 07/01/2023 13:58

UsingChangeofName · 06/01/2023 18:06

I'd like to see your RA for taking pupils abroad for 4 days with only 2 members of staff, tbh.

2 teachers (1 male 1 female) for 19 kids is fine and fits the suggested ratios as the kids are all over 16.

They've run the trip many times before (pre-Covid) with 2 teachers and 20 kids.

I've now put my concerns in writing to senior staff and given 3 clear grounds on which I am refusing to allow the pupil to go. Firstly they haven't been attending any lessons, secondly if their mental health is too severe to not be able to share a room and feel safe, then this is not something you can just change your mind about so a full psychological assessment is required, and thirdly they are having mobility problems needing planned rest breaks which would have a huge impact on the schedule for the rest of the pupils. One of the places we are visiting is industrial and not suitable for someone with mobility issues!

I feel I am somewhat being made to feel bad as this pupil has had a really traumatic life, but I'm going to keep my sensible/realistic hat firmly on.

I'll let you know the outcome.

OP posts:
MrsHamlet · 07/01/2023 16:43

It's "fine" until it's not. I had a medical emergency on my last trip. It meant I had to stay with one child whilst the other staff went with the rest of the group. Luckily we were 3 staff and not the 2 which were required for the ratio.

Greengr · 08/01/2023 11:09

2 staff it really not enough, especially if out of the country. If something happened to one member of staff or a child needed to be taken to hospital that would only leave one of you. You need a RA and an open and honest conversation with SLT.

lanthanum · 09/01/2023 11:31

JOIN A UNION

Don't be responsible for a group of kids off-site without some legal support should anything go wrong. Yes, it's very unlikely, but just suppose...
The school should have your back, but if it's something serious enough, you need to know that you have external support.

And yes, specific risk assessment for this pupil - which might mean taking another member of staff. If their mobility (or mental health) becomes an issue, you need someone to be able to stay with them while the rest of the group moves on - quite possibly two people, for safeguarding reasons.

Original poster
ChickenDhansak82 · 12/01/2023 14:33

Update:

Meeting took place which basically said this is what will happen on the trip, made it very clear that we cannot meet most of their demands, so they either agree and go or don't agree and we will refund.

Pupil has decided they still want to go, a very comprehensive risk assessment has been done, and a third adult is now coming on the trip and will remain with them at the accommodation should the pupil not feel able to venture out for the day. I am happy with the measures that have been put in place.

Basically the pupil has a huge sense of entitlement and has learned to milk the system for whatever they can get, so had "over exaggerated" all their needs to get whatever they could, because they are well aware they can use the discrimination card due to "ticking many boxes". I don't agree with what they do, but I do feel sympathy towards them as they have had a very traumatic upbringing.

Hopefully the trip will be a success!

OP posts:
WeAreAllLionesses · 15/01/2023 21:39

They have done you a favour bizarrely as you now get an extra member of staff!

TortolaParadise · 16/01/2023 21:24

MrsHamlet · 07/01/2023 16:43

It's "fine" until it's not. I had a medical emergency on my last trip. It meant I had to stay with one child whilst the other staff went with the rest of the group. Luckily we were 3 staff and not the 2 which were required for the ratio.

Exactly this. It is fine until it's not! (Then the blame game begins!)

I wonder if a member of the senior management team would be keen to join you on the trip?

TortolaParadise · 23/03/2023 12:58

Any update?

Original poster
ChickenDhansak82 · 23/03/2023 14:59

It went mostly fine!

The child is clearly an attention seeker so I literally ignored them and it was amazing how quickly they got over their "issues" when no one was pandering to them! We gave them VERY clear boundaries and rules so it didn't spoil any fun for the others.

There was one afternoon when they had a migraine and wanted to stay at the hostel, so one of the other teachers stayed with them as they had a load of marking to do, and checked on them every hour and recording every visit just in case they made an accusation.

We had many many safeguarding concerns to report when we got back regarding their behaviour and other things, but everyone had a really good and utterly exhausting time!

OP posts:
TortolaParadise · 23/03/2023 17:25

Well done to you and your colleagues. Glad all were safe and phew! It is all over now.

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