Primary staff - times tables test

[bakingmadnezz]

Thoughts?

Ive a y4 child who's good at maths but struggling with remembering some.

We will practise but I'm annoyed he's being forced to do this.

It's causing him some anxiety which I'm very much trying to navigate through "it doesn't matter if you don't get all right" and "this is ultimately going to be useful for you, forget the test."

I'm furious the children I teach in an SEN school are being put through it.

My Y4s last year had had plenty of practice at their times tables as we set a minimum of 10 minutes Times Table Rockstars per night and also did the 60 questions in 3 minutes before each Maths lesson. Most of them were brilliant at quick recall but really struggled to actually apply their tables when problem solving. It was like flogging a dead horse sometimes!

Interestingly we had parents evening tonight and discussed it.

The teacher said that the 'highest' sets couldn't rote learn but could apply and it was some if the middle/ lower sets who could learn by rote but not apply...!

He's been practising; not keen. he's just better at the using and applying stuff (apparently very good!)

I'm struggling to see the purpose of it

Other than it gets everyone learning them!

I guess the trouble is it's no good being able to use and apply 9x8 if you don't actually know what it equals. And even if you can work it out, you are going to get far less done than if you knew them well. As I am sure others will say there are some areas of maths which you just cannot effectively do without excellent timetables (e.g. factorising a quadratic) and if students arrive at secondary school without knowing them, it's very unlikely they will ever learn them properly.

I remember when I was in Y6 (or Top Juniors) in 1978, the teacher would make us sit with one hand out, palm upwards. He would fire a multiplication at you and if you were slow to answer or got it wrong, he'd hit your hand quite hard with a ruler. I used to tell my Y4s that when they complained about having to so Times Table Rock Stars!

My class really seem to know theirs for the first time and it makes such a difference to teaching the maths curriculum. Agree it's ridiculous that SEN pupils have to do it too but why worry? In fact, I have a Y4 child who I'd forgotten was even doing it til I read that. She doesn't even know her 2 or 10 x table, and probably never will, so what's the point of worrying. Typing some random numbers into a computer for 10 minutes later in the year will be a complete waste of her time but won't do her any harm.

We asked my son's teacher what happens if he passes or doesn't pass and she just said it helps the school with their maths grade.

So what is the point for the child?

I'm reluctant to make him practice and practice and get stressed when it doesn't really do anything. I'm a teacher too but this test seems a bit harsh, they have to get 25/25 too, so have to be perfect. (He typically gets 22/23 out of 25 at the moment).

One of the requirements of the Y4 Maths National Curriculum is that the child knows all multiplication facts up to 12 × 12. This means knows them with automatic recall in the same way they were expected to know their grapheme:phoneme relationships further down school.

All the times table check is doing is testing whether the children have met this part of the National Curriculum. If they have, great. If they haven't, they are behind where they should be in this aspect of their Maths learning and it may indicate that they require future help to 'catch up'.

In terms of why it's important: having automatic recall of addition and subtraction facts up to 20 and multiplication and associated division facts up to 12 x 12 are fundamental building blocks for future learning. A child attempting to solve a complex problem needs to be able to draw on automatic learning in order to keep the cognitive load low enough to be able to accurate and efficiently solve it.

V small cohort of Y4s here. 50% have SEN and work at Y1/2 level. Can't skip count in 2s beyond 14. Of the remaining 50%, 33% have diabolical attendance due to a mix of parenting decisions and/or genuine medical issues, and who don't see that this means they need to do more/anything at home to catch up. Then we have those who make silly errors such as typos, or who can't find the numbers on screen or on the keyboard quickly enough, or who just don't really care. They all get at least 15 mins daily to log on and do TTR at school, but it's amazing how long some ch will faff about finding a computer, locating their ear buds, putting in wrong login details etc etc

I genuinely don't think one child will "pass."

Looking good for this year then

In general I think learning times tables is a good thing. The problem is a test which expects children to get full marks to ‘pass’. No allowance for being human. For phonics screening the pass is always 32/40. This test could be 23 or even 24/25 and still confirm that children know their TT - with a bit of leeway for slight panic / fat fingers / mistyping.

I've just had my ds in tears tonight practicing for this test. Partly because he wasn't used to my macbook. He's excellent at maths and now he's worried he won't get exceeding. I've told him I don't mind if he doesn't learn them but we will practice so that on the day he feels good. I do believe its a good skill to have - I don't have it! But you can still do well in maths without it

I can’t help wondering why it’s deemed such an essential skill. Both my nephew and my daughter who are very good at maths (degree/PhD level) seemingly got there without knowing their times tables off by heart.

There is no " pass mark" and no fail. Schools receive individual pupil scores but also an overall average score. This then bands schools into top 10%, 25% etc nationally so it is a measure of the school rather than the child. There is certainly no exceeding mark for individual pupils. It is a check, not a test. So , if a pupil doesn't do well, it shows they need more support or alternate strategies.
In 2019, when the first check was completed, an average score of around 21/22 put a school in the top 10% but the national average then was just over 18. Only 17% of children scored full marks!

My son took it today and said he missed a couple through not typing in time. He has excellent, fast recall of all the TT verbally and is very strong in maths but the anxiety of the test is going to cause some brain/finger freeze moments.

This cohort didn't do their KS1 SATS so he hasn't had any other formal testing since the phonics screening and his school isn't big on formal assessment so I guess we need to practise test situations for the future. I feel sad for him and a bit guilty that he didn't achieve full marks as I know he's capable - maybe we should have pushed TTRS more. Obviously I just said I was super proud though!

How did everyone get on? We are at around 60% full marks which is huge progress for this cohort…nearly everyone scored in 20s as well so feeling very proud of them all!

About 50% full marks and most of the rest 21+. Small cohort.

Around a quarter of our year group achieved over 20 correct answers. We have a very high proportion of SEN.

We had around 50% full marks and most others 20+. As government tests / checks go, I don't mind it. I do think it's an important skill. I think it encourages home practice. The test itself isn't awful. Very normal if they're used to tt rockstars. I think it's important not to place too much emphasis on it and stress pupils out but otherwise I quite like it.