Can I ask teachers, pastoral leaders (non teaching) and SLT for your opinions please? Does having QTS make for a better pastoral worker?

[KimKsButt]

Really sorry for the long title.

I’m currently working in a pastoral role in a secondary school. I don’t have a degree, just A-levels taken a very long time ago.

I’m looking to advance this role, potentially with a family support element. Basically I would like to go higher to be able to have more impact, be involved in school policy etc. I don’t wish to teach or be involved in anything to with the curriculum, purely pastoral and safeguarding.

I’ve come to the conclusion that although CPD is useful (and vital) ultimately I do need to complete a degree. In terms of the role and personal interest Psychology, Health and Social Care or Childhood Studies is the direction I’m leaning towards. However, I can’t shake off the feeling that not having QTS or at least a degree in Education is going to hold me back.

I’d be really interested in opinions from teachers as well as SLT and recruiters. In your experience what do you think to the following two questions?

1. Do you think to work in any field at an ML or above in a school you need to have the qualification and/or experience in teaching? Is it fundamental?

2. To reach ML and above in a school, is it realistically impossible without being a teacher first?

I know in theory that I could do both but time is not on my side. So my thinking was BA in Education without QTS. Then post grad studies in a specialist field. My experience so far has been that even though my role doesn’t involve any teaching a lot of staff don’t always see the value in my experience as they know I’m not qualified. One HOD said to me once “the trouble is if they keep giving the role to unqualified people with no classroom experience it will never work”. My role comes with a 17K salary, I don’t think many qualified teachers would want my role.

To be clear the role does involve an amount of behaviour intervention but mainly safeguarding, identifying and supporting vulnerable students to get them in to school rather than supporting them in a classroom.

The reason I am thinking of doing the Education degree is that I would really like to do this role within a school rather than as an early help worker for social services.

Any wisdom would be gratefully received.

The problem with non-teachers in these pastoral roles is that they don’t understand the impact that their decisions about a child makes on the classroom. Dumping a child back in a lesson with no warning, no follow up, no information and no support is too often seen as acceptable because the child is back in school and little thought given to the impact on the rest of the class (or at least that’s how it seems). The lack of understanding that an email in the middle of the day is not going to be seen or responded to until we’ll into the evening as teachers do not get to sit in front of a computer. The divide between teaching and pastoral duties is false - the vast majority of teachers care just as much about children being in school and build relationships that help to facilitate that but that experience is too often dismissed as pastoral so not relevant. None of this is obvious from a pastoral workers side as they haven’t been in the classroom.

You don’t need any teaching experience to be management though, teachers with a pitiful few number of years experience are appointed as headteachers. A degree would probably be useful though.

1) Do you think to work in any field at an ML or above in a school

Does ML mean management level?

I have never worked in a school where there’s been anyone in SLT who wasn’t a teacher.

I think it’s vital to have been a classroom teacher in any sort of leadership role.

@Howshouldibehave

1) Do you think to work in any field at an ML or above in a school

Does ML mean management level?

I have never worked in a school where there’s been anyone in SLT who wasn’t a teacher.

I think it’s vital to have been a classroom teacher in any sort of leadership role.

Business managers are often slt with no teaching experience.

Business manager style roles are the only SLT roles that don't need QTS.

As a PP said, you need to have been a classroom teacher to understand the impact your decisions will have.

I don't think being a teacher is essential, but I do think a suitable amount of appropriate experience, and the self awareness to reflect on those experiences matters.
I've worked with some exceptional non-teacher pastoral leaders, but only up to middle leadership. What made them strong was they listened to teachers, they had buckets of experience across different, relevant areas, they swotted up on SEN, they didn't breeze in and out of lessons, they didn't swoop in and put a highly emotional student back into a lesson 20 minutes in, they didn't disrupt lessons. When a situation occurred that needed handling, they had a seamless ability to enter a room, check with teachers that it was a good moment, or if necessary quickly remove a student with minimal fuss and keep them out the rest of the lesson rather than return them, which creates the inevitable gossip. They handled situations sensitively and knew how to support teaching staff, especially when conflict has occurred between a parent and a teacher.

Like others on this thread, I've also worked with non-teaching pastoral leads who are like Carrie outlined.

SLT tend to be teachers other than the school bursar/business leader.

Some schools may have a non-teaching lead in SEN and student services inc attendance officer.

Heads of Year cover pastoral intervention and academic progress with 99.9% being teachers. Those posts are seen as a progression to SLT for those who don’t get a HoD role.

If you want to move up in a school you will need QTS unless you find an academy chain that has an non teaching pastoral set-up.

I’ve completed a health and social care degree, and had a leading pastoral role within a secondary school, and you know what? It just didn’t work out. I was always out of the loop and at times felt like my opinion counted for absolutely nothing because I didn’t have QTS. I could go on and on. I got paid 21,000 pounds per annum to have my confidence completely destroyed, and was made to feel like I knew absolutely nothing.

I’ve since left that post (and education entirely). Two years in the health and social care sector, I’ve doubled my salary, reduced my workload but most importantly realised I am actually very good at what I do.

If you don’t have QTS and you want a “career” and to be treated like a professional I would stay clear.

@LolaSmiles

You see I read your list and nodded away, I did all of those things. Super aware of the stresses and strains teachers are under, I always tried to make sure there was minimal disruption. I loved my job and had great rapport with certain parents which also took the strain off teachers etc. I was still made to feel like a complete numpty for every single decision by two SLT members who happened to line manage me.

I’d love to go and try just one more school to see if it was a face that didn’t fit issue, however I couldn’t go back to the salary now.

OP it can be an amazing job where you get to make a difference, so on reflection I hope my post didn’t put you off too much, however do go in with your eyes open.

chilly I'm sorry you didn't have a good experience in education. Some of the issues you describe are precisely why QTS is useful to have. We have a pastoral member of staff doing their teacher training now. They were an excellent pastoral lead but are finding classroom management completely different. Dealing with lots of high profile behaviour issues/safeguarding etc is very different to coping with a room of 30 students. Lolas post explains some of the scenarios well.

@HercwasanEnemyofEducation

I understood the scenarios but personally never did any of those things myself. I still think I was a good pastoral lead, and I always took the teachers lead. I never once thought I knew better than the teachers who were managing classrooms.

I had a lot of interference in other issues that were not classroom based. I was not trusted to do my job because I did not have QTS. (But I did not want to teach). The pastoral staff turnover in this particular school is very high. In hindsight I should have tried another school directly after as I miss the buzz of working in a secondary school.

Having QTS is probably going to help of course as the “industry” is education. Bringing in external practitioners like the education mental health practitioner role is probably the way forward. That way there are clearer boundaries on job roles and expectations.

I have a higher salary though now and a quieter life, but I’ll always miss parts of that job.

[quote Chillychangchoo]@HercwasanEnemyofEducation

I understood the scenarios but personally never did any of those things myself. I still think I was a good pastoral lead, and I always took the teachers lead. I never once thought I knew better than the teachers who were managing classrooms.

I had a lot of interference in other issues that were not classroom based. I was not trusted to do my job because I did not have QTS. (But I did not want to teach). The pastoral staff turnover in this particular school is very high. In hindsight I should have tried another school directly after as I miss the buzz of working in a secondary school.

Having QTS is probably going to help of course as the “industry” is education. Bringing in external practitioners like the education mental health practitioner role is probably the way forward. That way there are clearer boundaries on job roles and expectations.

I have a higher salary though now and a quieter life, but I’ll always miss parts of that job.[/quote]
Oh crikey, I could have written this post! This is EXACTLY the reason I’m looking at qualifying. You’ve put it so much better than me but this is what I’m finding at the moment. I have a job application open for a family intervention worker for social services but feel like I want to make it work at school. I would only be qualifying to try and get that professional trust in my own role. 90% of which is not to do with the classroom! We had a fully qualified mental health practitioner (over qualified in fact) and she wasn’t treated with any more respect!

Everyone’s reply has been really helpful, if only to highlight the lack of understanding of the role. I only have the experience at my school to go on but it seems this is widespread. Its such a shame as my workload suggests there is a real need for this role in school, some days it’s like wading through treacle!

Thanks everyone

Respect from who and about what though?

Perhaps it's the culture of the schools you are in. We have an EWO and pastoral team who liaise with social services etc and support families. Is this the sort of thing? I can't see this role becoming a leadership role, aside from safeguarding lead (though I thought they had to have QTS?). Our safeguarding lead is deputy and previously a teacher.

Mental health workers would be excellent. However the sessions need to be planned well, delivered at set times and teachers pre warned. A "drop in" style MH clinic doesn't work as kids just use it to miss lessons.

@KimKsButt

I considered QTS just to be taken seriously as I do have a degree, but my heart wasn’t in teaching. I believe to get through the PGCE you really do need to love “the craft”. I used to plan and deliver whole school assemblies on topics such as knife crime and period poverty etc, so I knew I had the confidence, however I didn’t underestimate the daily grind of teaching.

I left as ultimately it’s a teachers playground, and I wanted to be treated like a professional. I shit you not, during one multi agency meeting my line manager (deputy head) conveniently forgot my name and job title whilst introducing everybody. It was okay though as I had already dealt with these social workers in a previous job role, so thankfully they liaised with me afterwards.

It was never about control or power for me, I was happy for teachers to take the lead, however I could feel my confidence slipping away. The complete lack of respect and autonomy I was given was a shock. I’m still glad I had the experience though, but I am treated with a basic level of respect now (which is what everyone deserves regardless of job titles/hierarchies).

I sometimes pop on this board to see if there is any potential educational reform on the horizon, as I like to keep my options open. Good luck with your decision, and just remember to know your worth. The other pastoral leader I worked with left the police force for the role, and is now on antidepressants. She too feels similar to how I felt but I think she now feels a bit stuck.

@HercwasanEnemyofEducation

Yes they would just use it to miss lessons.
No easy answers. I think perhaps there was a cultural issue in the school I did work at. When I refer to the term respect I just mean basic manners and not being bullied. Worked in a few places now but haven’t received unkindness like that, which did come as a shock for me (because I presumed senior teachers would act like professionals). After my experience I did a lot of reading into certain cultures and it was my fault for going in so blind.

Going off on a tangent now but in response to the original question, having QTS in any school would help, I mean it has too. However Teaching/pastoral roles are so very different, so there will obviously be issues in certain schools, culture clashes etc. It’s a tough one and I don’t claim to know the answers or solutions.

I worked with some lovely teaching staff who I miss it was just awful working underneath the two particular SLT that I have mentioned. I often wondered why they advertised for pastoral staff if they were not going to utilise them.

Actually I’ve just read that again and didn’t explain myself properly 🤦‍♀️ (too tired, signing off now) obviously teachers have always given pastoral care, but with the needs increasing now amongst young people and the greater need for more pastoral care, these issues are bound to pop up!

Teachers haven’t got the time for too many pastoral issues but then when non teachers try and fill the gap it still doesn’t seem to work?

Eyes are as dry as crisps so I’m signing off.

Good luck to you all. Tough job whatever side of the fence. 👋

Chillychangchoo don't worry about phrasing. We know what you mean.

It sounds like a culture issue from your posts. It won't be much consolation, but SLT like that tend to undermine everyone. They're the sort of SLT who will be on behaviour call, arrive when you radio, but instead of removing the student, return return to you 10 minutes later saying "don't you worry Miss, our Bob and I have been having a talk and he knows that he needs to settle down. In you go lad.. be good (insert matey smile here as Bob staggers back to his friends and the whole class realises nothing will happen)".

@LolaSmiles

Yes sounds familiar. SLT give little Bob a nice chat then send him back into the classroom smiling. Bob 1, Teacher 0. Bob then starts a fight at lunchtime, que pastoral leader then getting the blame for lack of consequences 🤦‍♀️.

You hit the nail on the head. Meanwhile Mr Matey SLT, and it is usually a man in my experience, thinks he is amazing at behaviour management.

@LolaSmiles

Correct.

Mr Matey SLT also secretly believes he’s “cool” deep down, and on a level with the kids. He most certainly isn’t. Mr Matey SLT is referred to as “sound” by Bob. Bob is smart and knows Mr Matey runs the school, and gets the final say. Bob knows Pastoral Polly is probably only there as a tick box. Despite this, Pastoral Polly does get the blame for when the shit really does hit the fan, and Bob decides to excel himself in the behaviour stakes.

Pastoral Polly does have a quieter, richer life now in another job role. She still misses Bob, but not Mr Matey.

The end.

The two words that strike dread into every teacher is when Bob describes an SLT member as ‘sound’ or ‘safe’

I know this is an old thread but I am a pastoral and behaviour lead in a primary school and sit as part of the SLT.
I have a degree in childhood and youth studies but no actual QTS. I worked as a cover superviser, teaching assistant, and behaviour support. I started in my job 4 years ago solely doing safeguarding and family support but have worked my way up within the trust and added additional roles (attendance and mental health fall under me) on the way.

There is unlikely to be a pathway for you to get more responsibility and pay without having QTS. Whilst many schools are now employing people for purely pastoral roles, they are normally fairly low paid positions for family support roles or counselling. If you want the recognition and route to progression you need to go into social work. Alternatively, you need to become a teacher and then advance to year leader or deputy head with a responsibility for safeguarding or behaviour.

Our heads of year are non teaching( some are ex teachers but my no means all), and have been for the past 9/10 years ( ish)
It is hugely better in most respects but very dependent on who is the HoY. Our best HoY has never taught but is really proactive, helpful etc etc, our current worst one is an ex teacher, so ime no you don’t need QTS to be a really effective member of the pastoral team.