Progress 8 and Attainment 8 questions - secondary school

[Yazzyup]

Having read 4 documents from the DFE about buckets -etc I'm still not the wiser.

Scenario

Student 1 sits GCSE Maths in say 2021 (ignore Covid) when in Year 8 and scores a level 9
Students sits GCSE Physics in say 2022 when in Year 9
And other GCSEs across Years 10 and 11. -assume all GCSE scores at level 9

Does the early entry in Maths / Physics affect their progress 8 score. I've just read a VERY detailed DFE progress attainment 8 and I'm none the wiser.

Scenario 2

Student 2 sits Maths GCSE in Year 7, And A Level in Year 8/9 and all other GCSE in Year11 -does this affect progress 8 score -assume all outcomes for all GCSEs a Level 9

Or say a student 3 sits Maths GCSE as a private candidate with their tutor two years early (Year 8 or 9) and then rest of their GCSEs with their normal school. Does their normal school get credit for their Maths GCSE when calculating progress 8 even if the school wasn't involved?
Can anyone shed any light?

Thanks

I am fairly confident that from the school’s POV it makes no difference whether the grade 9 is achieved in year 7 or year 11, it is included in P8 for that child. That could all change before the hypothetical child gets to year 11 though.
Likewise, it doesn’t matter whether it is the school or a private tutor that prepares them for the exams. Schools get “credit” for kid who are intensely tutored but are also accountable for those who barely attend school, have severe health problems or personal difficulties. The data is not looked at in light of personal circumstances.
For the child, I’d be concerned about any of those three scenarios. Early entry is no longer common practice for gifted children for a reason. There is no benefit to the child of racking up lots of qualifications early. If they are going to do the rest of their GCSEs and A Levels at the usual time then racking up GCSEs and A Levels in maths by year 9 would seem counterproductive. Presumably, this is a child who is gifted and passionate about maths. If they may be wanting to do Maths, Physics or a related course at university then it makes no sense for them to do that with a Maths A Level that is 5 years old. The entire A Level system could be overhauled by then. There are other ways to develop deep and broad knowledge of and interest in maths that don’t involve exam specifications.

From the schools pov the only entries that count are the ones done via school. The first attempt at a GCSE counts so schools don't 'risk' early entry anymore. They'd rather a secure 9 in year 11.

From a human perspective any of those scenarios sound awful for the child.

This sounds like a question from a parent rather than a teacher. What’s your actual question?

No it doesn’t affect progress 8.

Is a school reluctant to enter a child early for maths/physics GCSE and you’re guessing it’s because they want to protect their results?

It won’t be. It’s not generally recommended to accelerate kids but to extend them in other ways instead. Otherwise you end up with them running out of secondary maths well before the end of secondary and then what? Unis advise against it.

@TheJackieWeaver

This sounds like a question from a parent rather than a teacher. What’s your actual question?

Teacher query not a parent one, but arose from the parents looking hypothetically. This is an exceptional child -already extended in breath and depth for challenge etc. And my questions was clear, just trying to see what counts for progress 8 or not. This is a scenario that might hit us in the next couple of years with an incredibly gifted child. I'm not bothered -but the parent ask if it would affect progress 8 and I wanted to be sure before I replied -especially if they go on a do a level 3 course before Year 11.

Scattergun approaches for early GCSE entry do not work but actually data for highly gifted pupils -shows a heavily personalised mentoring etc leads to higher attainment. Child does not want to do maths at university but has a gift in that subject. But early entry depends on child and approach. This particular child is not being pushed or accelerated so we are just looking at alternative and various pathways.

@MadameMinimes

I am fairly confident that from the school’s POV it makes no difference whether the grade 9 is achieved in year 7 or year 11, it is included in P8 for that child. That could all change before the hypothetical child gets to year 11 though. Likewise, it doesn’t matter whether it is the school or a private tutor that prepares them for the exams. Schools get “credit” for kid who are intensely tutored but are also accountable for those who barely attend school, have severe health problems or personal difficulties. The data is not looked at in light of personal circumstances. For the child, I’d be concerned about any of those three scenarios. Early entry is no longer common practice for gifted children for a reason. There is no benefit to the child of racking up lots of qualifications early. If they are going to do the rest of their GCSEs and A Levels at the usual time then racking up GCSEs and A Levels in maths by year 9 would seem counterproductive. Presumably, this is a child who is gifted and passionate about maths. If they may be wanting to do Maths, Physics or a related course at university then it makes no sense for them to do that with a Maths A Level that is 5 years old. The entire A Level system could be overhauled by then. There are other ways to develop deep and broad knowledge of and interest in maths that don’t involve exam specifications.

Interesting said child is young at the moment (primary school) and not my own child. Does not want to do maths at university, but we could look at enriching timetable and have flexibility and funding for them to do other GCSES should they not be doing Maths etc

Child does not want to do maths at university

But they’re in primary school?

If maths/further maths are likely to be their highest A-level results then you want to be taking them at the right time to count for UCAS. Also, when we asked Oxbridge for advice, they didn’t want an accelerated student to start uni content because that would then mess up their teaching too.

Look into UKMT, they assign mentors to bright mathematicians to coach them for the Olympiad team.

Progress 8 doesn't affect the child though so why would a parent be bothered about that?

How can the child know they don't want to do maths at university, they're at Primary school? This whole scenario sounds a bit bonkers to be honest. What are enriching pathways? State schools won't be on board with early entry and having to fill a timetable slot with something else!

@HercwasanEnemyofEducation

Progress 8 doesn't affect the child though so why would a parent be bothered about that?

How can the child know they don't want to do maths at university, they're at Primary school? This whole scenario sounds a bit bonkers to be honest. What are enriching pathways? State schools won't be on board with early entry and having to fill a timetable slot with something else!

Firstly, not a state school. Not bonkers either to ask a question. Kindness costs nothing.

Second of all it was the parent musing about the Progress 8 in state school etc -child will be a private candidate and I was curious -that's all. No big deal. The child in question is gifted in many areas. How does a child know if they don't want to do maths ? -at this moment in time they don't. Child is very able -and has SEN diagnosis currently wants to do something different at university of course that might change but some 18 year olds don't know what they want to do at Uni, some 10 year olds do -it's not age dependent! As not state we have other subjects and flexibility that is not in a state school. We often enter 1 year early etc.

Some top universities like Oxbridge do say like we want A*AA from the 3 that you do in Year 13 and will not count A Levels already done -but they do count in terms of whether or not you get an offer in the first place.

Thanks everyone though, I have my answer !

You said the parents asked about progress 8. This seems like an unnecessary concern if the child is going private, and progress 8 isn't in any way a measure of progress of the individual child.

I still maintain that the scenario is bonkers. No 10 year old reliably knows exactly what they want to do at university, there's a whole heap of maturing and learning to do before 18. The child does sound incredibly gifted and I hope this is managed well with realistic expectations and space to mature emotionally and socially as well as academically.