Why are schools so crap at organising interviews?

[Dawnofanewmillenium]

Looking to relocate. I’m pretty good at being shortlisted (not always brilliant at being offered the job, sadly!) but it has meant I feel an old hand at interviews.

Why oh why do schools:

Boast? “OUR kids ...” (as if there is something in the water that makes the children who attend that school inherently different to the one down the road?) I know obviously there’s a difference between Eton and Manky Street Academy but there’s a difference again between ‘our catchment / demographics are mostly ...’ and ‘our kids are ...’

Have kids give you the tour of the school. ‘Ask them anything! They’ll tell you!’ Ask the year 8 what exam board the year 13s do and they’ve no idea. Meanwhile, you have to ooh and aah at an empty canteen and football fields.

Give you demo lessons that are so ridiculous - fifty minutes to teach a complex subject that would normally be covered in several lessons.

Prolong the agony - come in, pull you out, tell you you haven’t got the job and then force you to go back in, get your things and slink out of school accompanied by someone who is clearly nervous and yaps nonsense?

Any more tales of horror from interviews? (And I know there may be no more for a while ...)

It sounds like you're perhaps missing the point of some sections of the day. An interview day is a two way process and is as much to see if you like the school as it is they like you.

I couldn't imagine being irritated that a school talks about "our students" because that's exactly what they are, and any candidate who hears "ask them anything" on a school tour and then gets irritated because technically y8s wouldn't know KS5 specifications is lacking common sense in my opinion. Demo lessons are done to see what someone's teaching is like; it's a flavour of their approach. Finally, different schools do the feedback and job offers differently.

Agree with pp I think you are missing the point a bit. Obviously you wouldn’t ask the year 8 about exam boards but it’s an opportunity to speak to some of the students and get a feel for the school. You can ask them things you wouldn’t ask the staff. For example, I was once told how a school loved to use a facility for all year groups as their ethos was about investing in the ‘whole child’, I asked the children giving me the tour if they’d used the facility - nope! Not for years!

I think the tour of the school is an opportunity to see if a candidate can engage children and actually enjoys their company. You get other opportunities to ask your questions.

I should have added “light hearted”

lola, smell, double I’m not missing the point. Of course you need to see the school and I’d be suspicious of a school that didn’t offer a tour.

The problem is that when children are sent with this mission they are often a bit clueless. If I’m here as a prospective head of Science, as gorgeous as the art work is, I don’t need to spend ages admiring it! I don’t need to stand in an empty canteen nodding dutifully and saying ‘yes, wow, very um, tasty!’

If schools are going to have children doing the tours then they might be better gently suggesting exactly the format the tours take. The worst is when packs of children are charging around the school with no clue of where they are going or what to see, so they end up just hanging around the parts they like and not giving much thought to what prospective teachers really need to be looking at.

As for ‘our kids’ - I won’t apologise for not liking that, it’s patronising and annoying.

My son was part of a pupil inverview panel once for a new assistant head. The reason the panel picked their preferred candidate over the others, was the way the person spoke to them. She engaged in a nice way, asked them questions they could helpfully answer, not about y13 exam boards. Obviously they had adults interviewing in a separate room, but DS said the teachers / head were really keen on how the candidates came across. The student panel focused on extra curricular activities and pastoral care. Seemed a great way of doing it. Also DS felt really empowered, as did all of the others.

I’m very glad your son felt empowered.

Paying attention to the students is nodding dutifully, thinking it's patronising when schools feel their students are their students and part of a community so speak about them in that way, dismissive of students not doing their tours in a format you want doesn't sound good.

Maybe this attitude towards students comes across during interview days.

Maybe staff and students get the impression you've no interest in their school community and are only interested in yourself and your area so may be like that if they appointed you.

northernlittledonkey I dislike student interview panels most of the time. It's fine when it's students having a chat, asking a bit more about yourself, enrichment interests and so on but I really don't like it when they're used to assess teaching and learning because what's fun to a student isn't necessarily what is best for their progress.

I don’t actually mind student interview panels, although I suspect they’ve had their day a bit. Last time I was seriously job hunting was in 2011 and I had six () before finally being offered a job! More recently, I haven’t had any.

Lola, to be honest, my post really WAS meant light heartedly and I’m getting a little bit fed up with it being twisted so that you can have an opportunity to be disparaging about my personality and commitment to teaching, neither of which you can know anything about.

I think young people are great. I wouldn’t want to do anything but work with them. But their personalities and general behaviours are not defined by the school they attend, hence my dislike of ‘our kids.’ (Also, I have found it’s used by SLT as an excuse for getting out of things - well OUR KIDS wouldn’t - but that’s an irritation relating to present post, rather than prospective future ones.)

More generally, I was trying to have a light hearted post about the stress of interviews and how this isn’t always brilliantly managed by the schools themselves

I'm not twisting anything.
I'm saying how some of the things you're saying come across, and that might come across in person too.

So how would you react to children showing you an empty canteen, lola, other than nodding and smiling?

I do get offered jobs and I do nearly always get shortlisted - I honestly don’t think I have a horrible, foul personality schools avert their eyes from. I mean, to be totally honest, if a school DID base their decision on who to appoint based on enthusiasm over a canteen or sports hall then I’m not sure I’d want to work there anyway

I usually just talk to the students about their school on the tours, no gushing or awe required.

To be honest, I've not said you have a foul or horrible personality, nor have I made a comment on your commitment to teaching. I've only said that it's possible some of your attitudes to elements of the interview day may come across.

Like others, I still think you're missing the point. Nobody is recruiting based on whether a candidate is sufficiently in awe of the sports hall. As with any profession, the recruiter is looking for someone who is not only competent, but who they also think would be a good fit for the organisation. Some of these more soft skills tasks form part of that.

No lola, I’m really not. You are the one missing the point - it was supposed to be a light hearted thread.

No, you haven’t explicitly said I have a foul personality. You have said (twice now, I think) that my smiling and nodding when a sports hall is shown to me is indicative of a deep seated attitude that schools don’t like. I don’t think that’s the case at all.

Well, I agree with you OP.

All the stuff with students is ridiculous. Yes, they do need to see how you interact in case you come across like a total arse who can't speak to kids at all, but some schools take it way too far and the kids seem to really believe they are going to get the final say, which is utterly ridiculous. And before I'm accused of having sour grapes/being a shit teacher I'm speaking from the other side. I've only worked in one school (got 4th job I went for but that was 16 years ago) and as HoD I'm involved in recruitment, though I've heard many a horror story from colleagues over the years. I did go for a job once about 3 years ago, and from that experience I will add to your list another example of shitness: when they have an internal candidate who is obviously going to get the job and who swans around all day chatting to the SLT/Hod/ whoever else is involved, while you sit there knowing you have wasted hours of planning time and have given up your day with 2 frees to go through a pointless charade. That pissed me off and has put me off from moving on, though I feel I should in a way.

I must admit I do think of them as 'our kids' (maybe because I've been there too long) but our HT makes such a big deal of getting the feedback from them after the student panel it makes what's often a long draining day even longer, then I'm often accosted by miffed kids months later asking why we took on their last choice . Head always goes by the lesson/my opinion more than anything so it's all a waste.

I think some kids are absolutely amazing at giving tours, but others aren't and you do feel sorry for some people being led around by a mumbling/smirking Y8 giving monosyllabic replies (I'm not involved in selecting students for this).

I've come to realise some people are great at pulling a super lesson out of the bag and saying all the right things in interviews and the day to day reality of their practice often falls far short of what was suggested by them on the big day.

I'm sure that's true of many industries and I'm not sure what the alternative is, but, yes, it's all a bit crap. We do send all candidates home after their interview though and then ring them later - I thought most places did that now and that the practice of leaving people sweating and making small-talk in a deserted staff room had finally and rightly come to an end.

Oh, bless you, duchess, I thought it must be me!

But yes, the internal. It’s horrendous going through that when relocating because you have all the travel involved too.

I’ve been on the other side of it as well as HOD. I’ve never asked the students showing them around to give feedback, and it’s just a quick half hour tour. I always selected sixth formers who you would hope would be sensible.

It’s also the time involved, in preparing lessons, and sometimes you are given the subject from absolute hell or have to frantically cram something into twenty minutes.

but some schools take it way too far and the kids seem to really believe they are going to get the final say, which is utterly ridiculous
I agree with that. Not handled well, student panels and student voice in schools can give an undue sense of power that's unreasonable.