Nativity behaviour... would you ever remove a child from the stage?

[StopBashingGabriel]

I can’t believe I’m asking this. I have been teaching a LONG time but I’ve never had such a hard class.

We normally have Reception on the stage with the Y1 narrators. The rest of Y1 and Y2 are in the chorus below the stage. Unfortunately it’s a very old fashioned school and the stage is high, with a proper backstage area.

There is a ringleader in the R class. SENCO is involved but her opinion is that it’s just a complete lack of boundaries. Mum is very permissive. Child is impressively manipulative and very verbal. She also pinches and pulls hair. The others are scared of her and do what she tells them.

She is currently beside a TA and the only Y1 who won’t put up with her —will lamp her back— but even so, we’ve had to remove her from every rehearsal. We’ve got 2 weeks.

How would you move forward? Staff are split between give her a chance but remove her on the day if necessary or telling Mum that if she doesn’t behave for the next two weeks, she doesn’t go on?

Give her a chance, but if she becomes disruptive or hurts anyone then take her off.

4/5 is far too young to expect her to be able to think about behaving for two weeks so she can be on stage.
No one expects or cares about perfect behaviour or performance in an infant school nativity.
A bit of messing about from a 5 year old will not ruin anything.

It sounds like you need mum in for a meeting about how you’re going to manage this behaviour, including what’s happening at home.

Can’t you move her away from the year 1 who hits her back and put her near children who will ignore her with the TA in between? Or have her next to the stage on a chair with the TA behind?

Oh believe me, we’ve had Mum in repeatedly! We’ve not mentioned this yet but we need to do it this week.

The stage isn’t that big and the TA needs to prompt so if she’s on stage, she’s near the other children. The stage is really high (old, traditional stage).

I’m worried about the scene she could make when we remove her. There’s the expected poking and waving and then there’s pinching Mary until she cries and wrestling her off midway to Bethlehem 🙀

Honestly though, why do you care if there's a scene? Have someone ready to whisk her off stage if she doesn't behave.

Too many school staff take "The Nativity" far too seriously! All this practising for weeks, disrupting all other learning.

They are little children. It isn't a professional production. Parents only care about seeing their own child looking cute on stage.

The naughty sheep poking Mary and being wrestled off stage may provoke some audience laughter but is quickly forgotten. Same as Angel Gabriel needing to go for a wee halfway through and one of the Wise Men falling asleep.

Re-deploy her as handing out programmes? Make it sound like an important job that you need someone for. She can do it in role and costume as an elf.

Doesn’t matter if nativity is disrupted. Even if it’s bad on the day

What matters is this girl and whether you can support her to improve this concerning behaviour.

Does she respond to sanctions? Does she have any impulse control?

TA next to her and another teacher in the wings to help remove her if she becomes really disruptive.

She is very young and obviously has some issues. It’s a nativity, not a Broadway show. Give her a chance.

She does have impulse control, it’s very targeted behaviour. We have very few sanctions available to us- we don’t like to remove from play unless absolutely necessary. We have a good track record of using praise and reward charts but she doesn’t give two hoots.

I do know that the Nativity can be taken too seriously but we are generally relaxed about it. At the same time, there will be 200 parents watching! There is no cute factor with a pinching sheep kicking a TA on their way out.

What did the senco recommend doing as next steps?

Maybe the op is also worried about upsetting the other children if the one child makes a massive scene (perhaps screaming and struggling) the other children might cry feeling the show has been ruined....they are probably already a bit nervous as it is.

I know other posters are saying that it doesn't matter if there is disruption, but it's not fair that one child should be more or less intimidating the rest.

Maybe the previous posters suggestion of an alternative job is a good one.

Give her a job, preferably one that involves both hands. Rather than ‘sitting nicely’, could she be holding up a star? Waving something? Holding up a sign (‘Welcome to Lovely School’s Nativity’?)

I have a child like that (not a bully like yours but doesn’t give two shits about anything, literally impossible to discipline in the traditional train like a dog method). If he started behaving that way I would support this consequence. Consequences are far more effective than punishments in improving behaviour, especially in manipulative children.

I’m reluctant to give her weapons 😂

I think another job is a good idea though. I’m actually wondering if she’d help with props, as she could still be on stage but with movement breaks.

I like the idea of her holding something (soft!) up so both hands are occupied. Can you also have her at the side of the stage so a supervising adult can be right next to her, with a clear route off stage in case a swift exit is needed?

I would be inclined to go the consequences route. If she can’t control her behaviour then you need to find out what she does care about and remove that, in line with school discipline policy and as agreed with senco and communicate to her mum

Eg pinching - move to table not on carpet for 5 minutes. Or lose 5 minutes of break time each time etc

Pinching in nativity rehearsal = removal from rehearsal. If she misses 3 or however many rehearsals due to this she’s on programme duty and can’t be in the show (as under rehearsed). Natural consequences flagged up in advance so she has the chance to comply

Also do catch her being good eg incentivise her to behave by saying how wonderful she’s being when not pinching (appreciate very hard!)

Coming from a different angle as someone who works in a school but also has a child with SN. (He has asd)

Personally I didn't want my ds placed in front of a whole key stage of parents when I knew he couldn't always behave appropriately. He didn't ever hurt but he couldn't sit still etc. Parents were already excluding him based on the fact he was different and I didn't want them to have another reason to find fault in him.

He always had a good job. Turns out he's amazing at stage lighting and settings (even his first Nativity at 4.4) and having constant little things to do (pass props/press play) kept him on task.

I wouldn't necessarily frame it as she cannot behave so we are removing her (it's not the 4yo fault she's had a lack of boundaries) but rather that she finds being on stage difficult and often has to leave the hall - and you want her included so she's doing X role.

I’d absolutely give her another Very Important Job where she is closely supervised and away from the other kids. Not to punish her but to play to her strengths and find some positives. There were two children like this in DSs class. One was put in charge of the music (in reality he pressed the stop and start button on the computer, with the TA standing over him and he LOVED it. They gave him earphones to wear too, which I think helped with some noise sensitivity) and the other was Mrs. Ross’s Best Helper - complete with clipboard and lots of very important errands to run, all of which were rewarded instantly.

Worked a treat.

itsgettingweird thank you so much for sharing. I don’t want to set her up to fail either.

Another job sounds fantastic. Thanks all!

We had a year 1 child like this. We knew we couldn't have him on stage the whole time. It wasn't fair on the other children who were being hurt and brought to tears.and it wasn't fair on him either to have that level of pressure on him and everyone watching and waiting.

We found a new role for the child. He spent most of the time off stage - it was actually fairer to him as well as he had less pressure on him to 'behave' and only had to be on stage for a few minutes. We built up his special job - it was basically hitting a drum at the exact right time - as being so important. And it worked for him. He felt really proud of his job. He got to take pride in doing it well and 'succeeding' and he had the pressure removed the rest of time and got to have his time out.

And it made the experience far more pleasurable for the other children too.

StopbashingGabriel fab username btw! It may prompt the mum to actually address her DDs behaviour as well. You're protecting her from public humiliation but you know as a teacher her behaviour will already be well reported to the parents of other classmates.

As an aside. I remember clearly ds year 2 Nativity. He was doing all the sounds and music and followed the whole script and pressed the button independently. Alpha mummy (PTA woman and mother of Mary - of course ) approached me one day with the innocent/ mock concerned head tilt and asked me if I wanted a dvd they were selling or if it would be too upsetting as my ds wouldn't be in it.
Oh no - I'd love one I replied. After all. I'm extremely round of 6yo ds for following a script independently and making sure all the actors and actresses had their music and sound effects to enhance their performance. I may have then asked how her own dd was getting on learning her lines (because she didn't have any!). Basically it was narrators reading the story and also reading what the characters said and did. Lots of sound effects as they acted this out and lots of singing.

You are absolutely spot on imo about not setting her up to fail. It certainly won't help her self esteem and probably will worsen her behaviour. She'll end up with more of a negative name and it'll be harder for her to right her behaviour as she'll seek more attention - even if it's negative.

I would also give her another job.
As a parent, I would not be impressed if she was on stage pinching or kicking my child.
As a TA, I would want her to be involved but I would pick her role carefully.

Your SENCO sounds shit TBH.