Is this a general rule or did she make it up?

[ihateryansworld]

We are having difficulties with my daughters teacher. We feel she is being ignored as she is a quiet child and many of the others in the class are big personality loud children.

I wrote 2 weeks ago asking for a meeting to discuss DD and teacher only came back to me on Wednesday offering a meet today.

We went along and asked where she would place dd in the class. She looked appalled and said she was not allowed to give that information. We asked was she in top part or lower part of class and again wouldn't tell us. I said judging by her reading books she must be in lower part she again said she wouldn't be drawn on that!!!

Is this normal? Do teachers not seriously give out this information. FYI Dd is 8 yrs old.

Thanks x

She should tell you whereabouts your daughter is in terms of attainment (so working towards, within or beyond age related expectations) but I wouldn't expect her to be ranking the class- it'd be unprofessional to do so, in fact. With regard to homework marking, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for her to let the TA mark it- it's only homework after all, which at primary school is more a tick-box exercise for many teachers than actually a useful opportunity to assess, given that kids get helped with homework by parents anyway.

She should hear your daughter read occasionally at least as the teacher is ultimately responsible for assessing your daughter's reading. I'd ask for clarity on the shouting- is she actually shouting or simply speaking loudly?

I'd have another meeting but prep her beforehand by saying you'd really like to know how DD is attaining and what get targets are- the teacher should know this, or at least be able to look it up.

*what her targets are, not get

I'd ask them to tell you her reading/spelling age. It's a quick test, and should give them guidance re book bands if she's not hearing them read.
Nothing wrong with saying you feel your child is invisible, I was a teacher and said the same to dyslexic dd's yr 8 English teacher. She was in the bottom sets and the teacher was so pleased to have someone who was no bother.

You could do your own reading age test too- Google it and a few come up.

What’s an ‘independent teacher’?

Maybe it’s a region thing? I’m in Northern Ireland I remember known what group I was in, I have a few friends that are teachers they can tell groups that the children are in and they will say things like “aw I’ve w parent coming in tomorrow known to know why my child is still in the lowest group” etc I have friends with kids who say “they are in top group for maths but not doing well with English” etc

She is well behaved and if the teacher shouts, as she does often she is terrified and takes it personally.

I think I'd be worried by this. I'm not a teacher but if I were I'd be concerned if I thought I was scaring the children. May be worth mentioning if there's a parents evening 'by the way you scare dd when you shout in class'.

BigFatLiar I'm afraid to tell her she frightens daughter now. After reading these replies I'm very worried about going back to see the girl. I have very obviously made a huge error in wording my request as I did. All I want is for my Dd to be allowed to progress and get her hard work recognised. I know the teacher has never read her book because I have written comments as far back as 3rd week back at school about us using our own reading books and almost every day since. She was unaware of the comments.

What colour or level is she on op?

My dd is 8 ( year 4 ) and it’s very obvious who is where in the class. Dd knows who are the strong readers/weak readers/who have pen licenses etc.

Our school does have ability tables but dresses them up as colours/animals/planets etc but they still know, especially after being together for a few years now.

If she is reading books as you describe then I would expect some intervention as a minimum.

Personally I'd have a chat with the teacher and use advice from MN to help you prepare.

Like a PP, I'd be suitably sceptical about so called independent teachers or tutors who do their own assessments as in 75-80% of the cases I've encountered tutors saying things like this they are almost always saying what the parent wants to hear / what they think will get them business.

I'd be concerned about the teacher not hearing her read and the same about the reading record not being viewed, but wouldn't about the lower reading group as ultimately whilst the lower group can make progress so at the rest of the group.

On reading books, I find that with weaker readers there's often a discrepancy between what they can decode/say and their understanding. Eg a child could decode most words in a book, but after 5 mins reading they can't discuss what they've read or answer wider questions.

Are you in England? Y3 or Y4? What kind of books does she read at home? At 8, a child who is meeting age-related expectations should be capable of reading age-appropriate chapter books, such as Roald Dahl, Horrid Henry, Worst Witch etc, with only a little support. They should be able to explain what is happening in the story and who the main characters are. They should be able to answer questions about what they have read. Can your DD do all that?

As previous posters say, where your child is in the class is unimportant. Where she is in relation to age-related expectations does matter, and you should be well aware of this from previous reports. How did she get on with the Y1 phonics screening check and the Y2 SATs? Does she have an individual learning plan?

If you post a little more about what your daughter can do, and what she is struggling with, you will get lots of support about how to help her. Just focus on whether she is on track for her age, rather than where she ranks in relation to her classmates.

Don't be afraid to go back. You asked what you thought was a reasonable question and MN has explained why it's not allowed. Nothing to be afraid about talking to her again at all.

Nothing to worry about with her staying in the lower group as all the children will be progressing. It is a problem if there is a discrepancy between what she can do at home and at school though. Is that what seems to be happening?

A bit off topic, but I despair of the modern teaching world which doesn't allow a primary school teacher time to hear every child in the class read at least twice a week. When I started teaching over 30 years ago in KS1 I had a class of 28 practically on my own all day, every day, no class TA. (There was one whole-school. TA who basically did all the Senco support across Reception to Yr 6 on an ad hoc basis). But I still heard my weakest readers 5 days a week, the ok readers 3 days a week and my strongest readers 2 days a week, and I wrote in their reading diaries every single time I heard them.

All the children in my class also had between 2 and or 4 reading books, depending on ability (a mix of scheme and own choice books) to take home every week plus a bonus book for the weekend. I had no real breaks or lunchtimes because of working through them, but at least the curriculum, and the Head, weren't putting on the kind of pressure I read about these days and leaving me unable to hear readers.

Something is very wrong when reading/hearing children read/monitoring reading is neglected as the OP implies. I'm not sorry I got out when I did.

I'm not sorry I got out when I did.

When did you leave?

I think the job is now unrecognisable from when I trained 21 years ago. It’s very sad.

I haven't made myself clear. I have absolutely no issue with her being in the lower group, if that's where her capability lies. However I know she can perform at a higher level. The issue I have is that the teacher is so busy with the high flyers and the more demanding kids in the class that quiet children (because I'm not the only parent who feels like this) are being left to their own devices. My Dd needs to be moved to the next reading level. It's not happening. That's my issue. And I'm not getting satisfactory answers.

How do you know she needs to be moved? How do you know she’s not performing at the level she can?
If your child isn’t receiving the support and teaching she needs then that’s one thing but it’s not the same as being moved off the level the teacher has assessed her at being.

It's really normal for you to have no idea how able your child is in the class. DD2 is now in secondary and all her classes have a letter and a number, but we've never been told which 'set' she is in for maths.

DD3 (yr6) has just had parents evening and we were told how well she did on SATs past papers, but weren't told whether that was 'good' or 'bad' in relation to the rest of the class. In fact she came home last week and said 'Mum, the teachers changed our maths tables today and I'm on... the red table!!! ' I said 'oh right, is that good?' and she paused, shrugged her shoulders and said 'huh, I don't know ' It's such a routine thing that they change the groupings in her class, whether because of ability or relationships between children, that they just accept it.

As long as you see progress, she's doing fine.

@ihateryansworld I don't think you've gone about this the wrong way at all. Maybe I have a different perspective as I've grown up in a different country, but I don't see why everything always has to be such a secret. I'd want to know if my child was at the lower end of the class and why.

At age 8 I remember reading things like the Hans Christian Andersen stories, a few at a time...plus some children's novels like Bibi the Little Danish Girl and a range of children's magazines. I was also starting to learn English as a second language and was reading basic texts in it.
I wasn't a genius, this was the expected standard, no excuses.

Even in the UK I always knew where I ranked in the class because the teachers read our rankings out loud, although this was later, in secondary school. I'd say if you're worried I'd get your daughter extra tuition where she can get one to one attention.

Is this normal? Do teachers not seriously give out this information.
Not sure what's normal, or if there even is a normal. In my experience it depends on the individual member of staff.
At my kids' primary school one teacher happily volunteered the class rank info, unprompted. Another refused.
I couldn't understand the refusal at all. It's no different to knowing if your child is in a top/middle/bottom set at secondary school (info they readily share), surely.
I don't understand why primary schools feel the need to keep private this information about our own children's progress. Ridiculous.

Because it's not about your kid's progress. Just thinking about my last two classes, being in the 'top' group would have meant vastly different things.

The attainment of the class is, quite frankly, none of your business, and no help at all in ascertaining information about the progress of your own child.

Even Ofsted couldn't give a monkey's until they reach end of key stage.

But I still heard my weakest readers 5 days a week, the ok readers 3 days a week and my strongest readers 2 days a week, and I wrote in their reading diaries every single time I heard them.

Me too. However, I did absolutely fuck all teaching in History, Geography, Art, etc - the children just got on with it. And we did no modern foreign languages whatsoever.

HoweverNow, I teach all those subjects properly. It's a totally different world. But every child in my school learns to read, because I am Literacy Lead and very knowledgeable about the science of reading, instead of just 'hearing' readers. Which was enjoyable, but not as effective.

OP, hi, you were saying that your DD needs to move up a reading level. Just a thought - why don't you get one of the Horrid Henry books (as mentioned by a poster upthread) for your DD and see how she gets on with it? That would give you something concrete to discuss with the teacher in a couple of weeks' time.

Hi again op, I posted earlier in the thread.

Do you know what level/colour your dd is on?

My dd hasn’t had a single thing written in her reading record since starting year 4. She reads with us every night at home ( always has done ) and the only comments that are in the book are from myself and dp.

I asked my ex sil who works at her school why this may be and she said that in year 4 the reading sort of drops off in school and the children tend to do a lot of independent reading.
I know from dd that there are quite a few dc who struggle hugely with reading so surely this approach wouldn’t work for them.

In her class there are a lot of very clever dc and I would be very upset if my child was struggling so much and not being read with.

You may need to go back to the teacher but with a different approach. If you feel she needs to move up then she needs to be assessed. It may be that she is ready to jump a few levels.

I think it can be quite shocking for first-time parents to see just how little one-on-one reading time their child gets with a teacher at primary school. (I'm not bashing teachers. I'm married to one).

This is definitely a time when it's worth stepping in and seeing what your DD can do outside of the confines of Biff, Chip and bloody Kipper.