Gavin wants to get rid of the upper pay scale

[noblegiraffe]

Because nothing says ‘fuck you, experienced teachers’ like paying them the same as someone a couple of years in.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/832425/SoS_to_STRB_Sept_2019.pdf

He’s asking the pay review body to ask whether there is still a case for the upper pay scale, and says he wants a flatter pay structure.

How will this work when UPS teachers are expected to take up extra cross-school responsibilities in order to justify their pay point?

SENCo is a position that should be applied for - a TLR or leadership role.

The stuff that a UPS teacher might do is something that doesn’t need an interview, like ITT mentor, or taking the lead on improving boys’ achievement.

The whole point of UPS was to recognise and reward the experience of classroom teachers who stayed in the classroom. It wasn't supposed to be about doing stuff that should attract a TLR.

It’s fair to expect those experienced teachers to do a bit more though.

After all, I spend far (far) less time planning lessons than your average NQT

God, I don't! But then, I teach a weird subject with a new spec and marking is a weird hobby of mine...

God how awful. If my UPS goes so will I I think. Along with my 15 or so years of experience. The bright young things can set it all on fire. 🙄

I'm new to teaching and honestly I think this is rubbish- part of what attracted me to teaching is the defined pay scales and structures, and the opportunity to progress.

I do think perhaps the stuff that justifies UPS needs to be more clearly defined- some people seem to loads for their UPS, and then others seem to have it historically and not really do much to justify it (although obviously I get that I might not know the whole of what everyone is doing). For example, I saw one teacher who ran one residential trip a year, and that justified her UPS, whilst other people are seconds in large departments and do an awful lot more for their UPS.

I think the only way I'd support this is if anyone who took on additional duties was given a TLR (even a small one) at a set rate for a set duty. I guess this would be hard to administer, though?

Does anyone ever lose UPS once they have got it?

Seconds in large departments will have a TLR (you can easily progress tot hat earlier in your career)

Are you getting UPS and TLR confused??

Pay portability has been scrapped so obviously you might lost your UPS if you move school and they don’t match it.

I know people who have forced into that situation when they have had to leave toxic schools (for their own mental wellbeing) and go to another school and have accepted MPS as they were so relieved to escape.

Will they give people with ups a pay demotion then?

some people seem to loads for their UPS, and then others seem to have it historically and not really do much to justify it

Interesting point and one many SLT gold plus reasonably new teachers. I used to be one (back in 2004) and used to think the same. Now I am a teacher on UPS3.
I suppose the fact that those on UPS have not left teaching, is pretty justifiable in itself, alongside valuable experience gained. The culture cultivated in current schools, mostly by academies, of having to do more and more over and above the job description is damaging and causing many teachers to not even reach UPS1. Gavin is treading a fine line here. Methinks it is probably a knee jerk reaction to ‘oh fuck, we can’t afford for all teachers to start on £30,000. Where can we claw back the money from?’.

Interesting point and one many SLT gold plus reasonably new teachers.

Can you explain what you mean here?

So sorry! I didn’t proof read! I meant many SLT think that too. No idea what my phone did just there!

Twenty years in. 12 hour days, exemplary practice. Do I deserve my ups3? Yes I fucking do. And much much more besides. It’s barely 40 grand and for what I actually do it’s pathetic. My daughter earns six figures at barely 30 years old in advertising. So fuck Gavin and anyone else who thinks this is a good idea. Sounds like they want a cull so they can introduce whatever evil plan they have up their sleeves with less opposition. The fuckers.

Whereas the teachers mentoring them know that enthusiasm is no substitute for skill.
That is so true!

Once I picked up a tricky class after a new young teacher had a rough time. I took them on said it would be a nice challenge to a colleague meaning it would require some thought on getting then to retain information and get the GCSE. Young teacher decided to share their wisdom with me about how they got them on side and really bonded with them etc. They arrogantly missed that I was going in anticipating some learning barriers in advance, not worried about being their mate.

They can't cut anyone's pay that they're already on. What is likely to happen is that the younger/newer lot will have to do more for less. Which means me at M6 if I don't progress to UPS I'm going to enjoy a work life balance and just say Fuck Off to anything apart from planning and marking.

I worked in a school where someone lost their UPS. They were on a support plan and couldn’t prove they had ‘earned it’ as subject lead.
I am a senco and moved schools from a TLR to an UPS. I found this a bit odd to be honest.

@Piggywaspushed I'm not getting them confused- at my first placement school, there were two seconds in science, and neither of them had a TLR, just UPS. The school was in a very underfunded area of the country and didn't offer a TLR for anything less than HoD/HoY. I didn't ask them about pay, but this came up in conversation.

I'm not saying experienced teachers don't deserve the level of pay they get- of course they do, and I fully understand it's so important to keep experienced teachers in the classroom- but if that's what it's for, then shouldn't it be part of the MPS?

I don't think starting salaries should go up to £30k (although I do think they need to be enough to live on in all areas of the country), either. I honestly don't think anyone who's in it just for the money makes it past their training year anyway.

I am a senco and moved schools from a TLR to an UPS.

TLR payments are safeguarded for 3 years if they’re removed due to restructuring aren’t they?

Not sure you can move down the pay scale though - didn’t Nicky Morgan talk about possibly introducing this when she was Ed Sec?

No idea to be honest. It was totally different local authorities as well which may have made a difference

Agree that if M6 is suddenly paying as much as UPS, there’ll be a lot of teachers going ‘well why should I be doing all this extra work for nothing?’

Exactly and then they’ll be no student mentors, no NQT mentors, no one leading on core subjects, trips, assemblies etc etc

It can’t be the case that you’re either MPS or SLT, surely?!

It'll be interesting to see what this does to the rest of the teaching scale, even just MPS. If NQTs can start at £30,000 on MPS1, with an assumed increase of around £2,000 per upscale, someone on MPS4 would suddenly earn as much as I do on MPS6 with a TLR.

Or will they get rid of pay scales entirely and teachers who do stick it out for longer than 5 years should just be grateful to be stuck on £30,000 forever?

How many will just go "fuck it, shove your TLR up your backside and I will just go back to classroom teaching only"? Because the one extra free (unprotected, in any case) per fortnight I get for my rather large extra responsibility certainly doesn't make up for the work I do.

I have over 15 years' worth of experience in a shortage subject. I've never made it to UPS; changing schools a few times due to relocation or for promotion has always meant starting the required 2-year cycle again. Now I, and many others in my situation, will probably never see an increase in pay again unless we go down the SLT route with what appears to be no cap on hours written into our contracts.

Sod that. I've been planning my escape for some time, am on the countdown and while I'll halve my pay in the first instance, a few years later my experience will count for enough to be on around £10,000 more than I earn now - for fewer hours and far less stress.

there were two seconds in science

Science is unique to other departments because there will often be a Head of Science and then Head of Chemistry... etc. If they then want additional staff to be responsible for something like KS3, often this isn’t remunerated (which is bad) because the Heads of Chemistry are really the ‘seconds’ as they would be in other departments.
Someone could be a ‘second’ as you put it and still be on MPS, depending on how long they had been teaching. They wouldn’t or shouldn’t be jumped up to UPS instead. UPS is not a substitute for a TLR. It’s the length of time (and passing your performance management in all that time), rather than how much extra you do.
I used to feel the same. Thinking, ‘I look like I’m doing more than you yet I am paid less’ but now I am there, I’ve learnt what it takes to get to UPS and respect it more (and I just work smarter now, not necessarily harder!)

Why was the threshold created?

I remember lots of stuff about glass ceilings and recruitment-wasn’t it to give experienced teachers a reason and reward to stay in the classroom?

Surely was a profession we need that now more than ever??

What impact are they trying to have?!

The idea of UPS was to keep teachers in the classroom and not necessarily have everyone hunting down management responsibility to gain more pay. The implication on the thread is mentors, PSE coordinators etc are all on UPS. Blimey in my school, people are mentoring NQTs and trainees and becoming AHOYs and KS leaders in their second year of teaching!

I hadn't realised how unusual my school was in the number of TLRs it has and the fact that it waves through experienced staff on to UPS 95% of the time (to be fair, the vast majority will be doing something extra anyway, but not TLR worthy extra). We have a new head so we'll see...

I am also in a very underfunded area.

And, actually, if UPS now simply exist to cull TLRs and make more experienced staff take on responsibility for very little extra money and no time, I have changed my mind : get rid of them and just sort out payscales properly!