My idea for the primary school day - any good?

[pfrench]

I've put this in chat too.
I think schools should start at 8 and finish at 4.30.

Children have lessons until 1.30, with two equal sized breaks for snack and lunch and play. Teachers teach the core subjects of English, maths, and others such as history, geography, and RE in those hours.

The afternoons are taught by specialists. Sports, dance/gymnastics, music, drama, art, design technology and computing. Two chunks of afternoon learning. Older children might have chance to do two lessons of a particular interest or skill in order to specialise/take external exams etc.

Teachers can't leave the school until 4.30 - these are still directed hours. In that time they mark and plan. They also have the opportunity to take children out for pre-learn, or intervention lessons. They lose out on some of the above stuff if this happens, but that's what happens in lots of schools anyway.

At 4.30 there could still be an after school club for those who need it, but everyone eats breakfast at school. That's part of primary school learning - communal eating. Also at 4.30 onwards there could be more specialist club type interests run, or even Cubs/Brownies/Scouts run from the school too.

Children go home at 4.30 or 6pm having had good subject teaching by teachers and by specialists. The focus on the arts and sports in the afternoon encourages interests in those things for continuing outside school. If things like extra dance lessons or Scouts or whatever ran from 5 - 6pm, that would also free up evening time at home.

Teachers focus properly on the stuff they are confident in. They can choose to teach some of the afternoon subjects if they want/are specialists. They get their marking and planning done in the school day, they take less work home and are more on it for the next day.

Parents don't have to worry about childcare around school hours so much. Families get their evenings freed up a bit.

What do you reckon? Should I be Secretary of State for Education?

How are the specialists paid?

So you are inventing the trad prep school format - lessons taught by subject specialists , long days and afternoons of sports ?

Or the Continental early starts and lunchtime finishes effectively - with afternoons of non academic stuff ?

For both the funding implications are huge. You are turning school into childcare. Which is nice if you need it but very expensive for the state

Magic beans? (Same as our pay rises!)

It's about a revolution. In theory would it be a good idea?

I am sort of turning it into childcare, because that's real life for lots of people.

I know it would be expensive for the state, but would it be beneficial for society?

Would it identify and encourage talent in sports and the arts more? Or would it ultimately end up being like some of those lessons are now.. from my own failings perspective, I can't really see who is good at sport. I can see who is pants at it, but can't identify proper talent other than kids who run faster than others.

One friend said 'no I want to have breakfast with my children', another said 'sounds ace, Imogen threw a shoe at me at breakfast this morning'.

There's no doubt that there is the assumption that everything a child or adult should know, should be taught at school. BSL, gardening, first aid, cookery, social care - listen to BBC Breakfast any day and you'll find yet something else schools should be teaching.
There is a skills gap as the lessons I had from my parents don't seem to happen in the same way now for many children.

However, OFSTED and parents still remain widely focused on SATS - they may all say it doesn't matter, but they are all sharing scores on What's App - whether those scores are true or not!!

If the DfE could find such a radical shift I think it sounds good, the maths etc in the morning and the less academic stuff in the afternoon is what primary school did many years ago.

However, the government currently doesn't care about education. Perhaps education will get a look in after Brexit, if there is any money left from the magic money tree, but i doubt it.

How will it be funded? Budgets are being cut not increasing.

Far too long a day for little ones. Could start that around 7/8 years old but I would NOT have wanted to be away from my 5 years old for 8 and half hours each week day (and I live in Scotland where school starts at mostly age 5 rather than 4, can't imagine how a 4 year old would cope with that!)

I'd much prefer focus to be on the proven researched benefits of starting secondary school at 10am for teenagers with late sleeping brains and exams to do. Far more beneficial for them and society than spending money mucking around providing childcare.

Not ‘proven researches benefits’ stalk. It’s total myth. I’ve worked in a school that trialled that. It was catastrophic. Attendance snd punctuality crashed. Who’s have guessed that would happen with teens left behind to get themselves up in the morning when parents and younger siblings were already out. Family relationships took a huge knock as different aged siblings stopped having mealtimes and leisure times in common. Teen’s participation in sport and other activities plummeted, as they didn’t finish school in time to join in. Going home later left teens not only vulnerable to becoming victims of crime, but with the temptation and opportunity to become criminals too.

We were supposed to trial it for two years. Within months staff and parents begging the school to return to a normal start time. We stuck it out for about 10 months. Worst ever attendance and punctuality, exam results at rock bottom, record numbers of sixth form students retaking the year, crime rate around the school peaked to the point where police were also begging us to return to early start and finish.

Don’t believe all you hear. It was a stupid idea. And the results of experimenting with the novelty were devastating

Currently older children can usually walk home as it’s always light at 3 ish. In winter it would be dark at 4.30 so no walking home.
Who looks after the children of teachers- who would now have to begin work around 7 to set up for the day.
And - it’s hard enough to recruit teachers now. Take away the flexibility of occasionally slipping away at 3.30 (taking work home but you can) and it might be even harder.
Also same old same old- children in intervention groups will miss the fun stuff. This is what always happens.
Good try OP

Pointless discussion as the government would never fund it like this-they would just try to change contracts and make new teachers work 8-4.30 for the same pay and they would be marking till the wee hours and probably all burn out by October half term.

If I was teaching bang on 8, I’d need to be in for 6.30/6.45. Who would have my kids then?!

Specialists couldn’t make a living working afternoons only and schools wouldn’t ever want to be the schools that put core subjects in the afternoon and used the specialists in the morning.

What about holidays?

Why do some subjects need specialists and not others? Do you need to be a specialist to teach primary level computing, for example?

Op, why do you keep banging on about this? I don't get it.

Where do my kids go before school? I'm already at school at 7:15 for an 8:20 start (early I know!) But earlier would be a real issue and be really hard.

Op, why do you keep banging on about this? I don't get it.

@elizabethmainwairing have there been other similar threads?

8 is ridiculously early, 5 days a week if they they would be shattered! I think a 4 day school week and a 4 day working week would be lovely and more family friendly. Work to live not live to work!

I'm a prep school teacher. Your "plan" is not far off what we do already, other than a 3.30 finish.

If I was teaching bang on 8, I’d need to be in for 6.30/6.45. Who would have my kids then?!

^^This! And other PPs have said a similar thing. I had to leave a school last year because teachers were expected in for morning meetings by 8.15am, never mind 8am. The earliest childcare I could find started at 7.30am, and after dropping off, then a 30 minute commute (which isn't that long - plenty of teachers have longer commutes), I wasn't getting in until about 8.10am. I then had to rush to whatever meeting was on, having had no time to even open my computer and get myself sorted for my lessons.

We're all in between 7.15-7.30 for an 8.30 start but no morning meetings.

I know our school head is in school at 6.30 (seriously - the woman's barmy) but no blooming way! There's no way you'd find teachers able to get childcare to enable them to be in, set up, caffeinated and prepped to start teaching at 8am unless they lived on the school doorstep which most people really don't want to do. Plus loads of kids do after-school activities already which would have to go out of the window - and I'd rather my own kids keep to their current setup with out-of-school stuff like Brownies and the like where they go to a one that's not just rammed with the same kids from the school so their social circle gets a bit wider as some protection in case friendship issues arise at a later date.

Most parents would still have to pay for before and after school care anyway - on a day mine are in wrap-around care it's 7.30am for breakfast club and picked up some time after 5pm depending on traffic/transport.

no sorry - some of us make a lot of sacrifices, and are lucky enough to be able to do it, so that our children aren't in school and care so many hours. plus there wouldn't be enough specialists to do it, some schools wouldn't have a good balance (ours is sports obsessed frankly) and children who actually do proper training in an activity could end up having to do it at school rather than their usual lessons which would be unlikely to be at a similar standard.

plus the thought of my kids having to wait until 8am for breakfast when they are ready for a huge breakfast at 7 is laughable.

sorry. not for our family.

I wouldnt want my 4 year old in school for over 8 hours a day sorry.

I'd like less school hours not more.

What would the people who teach drama and dance for a few hours in the afternoon do with the rest of their day?

The specialists couldn’t earn a decent living and schools couldn’t afford to pay them anyway.

What about those kids who hate school... you know, the ones who are first out, like a shot , the moment the bell rings. How will a longer day impact on their behaviour, and opportunities for learning outside of school?

Will their time will be much more productively spent at school?

If you assume that their families are neer do wells, maybe. But I believe in allowing families to have space to be themselves, whatever background they have.

Aside from the obvious logistical problems and the funding, I like spending time with my children and we'd all hate this!