AIBU to want my second in dept to stay later?

[theduchessstill]

I am genuinely asking because I don't want to be unfair, but I'm struggling with how things are going at the moment.

She started with us at the end of last year, during the 'quiet' time, and seemed to keep hours similar to the rest of us - leaving at around 3.30 -4, staying a bit later one or two other days. All fine.

Since we started back (we've done nearly two weeks now) she has been in at 8.20ish and gone by about 3.30. Every day, aside from a calendared meeting. On that day she left the moment the meeting ended at 4.30. I have barely had a chance to speak to her in any depth as we only share a couple of frees a fortnight, so we haven't had a chance to discuss the projects/developments etc we/she are supposed to be working on. It's really frustrating tbh.

I also feel she's being a bit snippy and defensive with me when I say absolutely anything to her, though I may well be imagining that. I have said nothing whatsoever about hours, but I said something about books belonging to her class that were in the wrong room and I felt she thought I was getting at her and she came back with a bit of attitude, which I feel was unwarranted. I asked a question, that was all. I hope I didn't sound PA - I certainly didn't mean to, but I'm starting to feel like I need to be on eggshells around her, which I could do without. Also, there are a couple of things she said she would do which there is no sign of, and I need to raise that with her, but she's never there!

I know she has small children but as far as I was aware her dh does the majority of the pick-ups as he is nearer. Certainly that seemed to be the case before the summer, but now maybe not. I'm aware things change, and I'm a lp who went through a traumatic divorce while being well-supported by my school and department, so if she came to me and said there was a problem/she was struggling I would absolutely be supportive, but this just never being around is potentially a problem if it continues.

I'm thinking I should speak to her in a non-judgy way next week, but would this be out of order? I'm going to get advice from more experienced colleagues on Monday, but wondered what people here thought in the meantime.

Hang on, directed time? Finishes when the kids go off-site? When did that change?
Unless it's a meeting or event that's in the directed time calendar then staff are free to leave after a set time (usually 5/10mins after the bell), though some schools have on the bell at secondary.
It's up to staff when/where they do the other reasonable hours required to fulfil their duties. If people want to go home, have time with their kids and then work later then its not for anyone at school to say otherwise.

OP You're not unreasonable for wanting time to talk with your 2nd in department. It's the fact that you want her to be around after school multiple evenings a week because it suits you to have her around for chats that's unreasonable. Ditto for speculating about who does the pick ups in the colleague's family. It's not relevant.

I'm a TLR holder. I don't run my leaving times past anyone. I leave when I want unless there's a timetables meeting. Sometimes that's 3:30 Sometimes it's 6:30. If someone wants to catch me after school then they ask and I'll stay for a quick chat. If I want to leave earlier and make the most of summer evenings then I don't hang back just in case someone wants to chat.

Instead of seeing it as formal meetings being called (which you can't do out of school unless you've got time left in her directed time pot) or lots of sitting around being available for chats, just use a bit of common sense:
Hi Jane, I was wanting to catch up with you about a couple of things. Have you got 10 mins either before or after school?
Simple.

If my LM wanted me to spend less time with my children so he could have a weekly meeting after school I would point out that LM time is for that. Book a weekly fortightly meeting with her in the time meant for that.

Meeting times are not scheduled in the school day - it's just the culture of the school and there's nothing I can do about it. It's not going to happen - I would love to work somewhere where it did though. Your head sounds great, Wormzy

But meetings should be calendared and LM meetings should be in LM time. As a decent head of department I would be raising that with my union

Tw1nsetAndPearls
I agree.

The OP says they share a couple of free a fortnight. Both will have some timetable time above the minimum PPA allocation for their TLR posts. They could catch up in one of those shared frees.
There is no need to be available after school just in case someone's manager wants to chat.

I am coming across as harsh because this is something I feel strongly about.

There is a huge retention crisis in teaching and rather than just hold our hands up in horror about it , middle and senior leaders need to ask themselves - "Am I doing something to make the problem worse?"

In this case OP, I think you would be - if you expect her to stay after school when she has other things she would rather be doing.

I was second to a HOD who was passive aggressive and just expected me to psychically expect to know what she wanted from me. It was soul destroying and I hated working with her. Just be explicit and say you want to talk every day and work out when that time is going to be.

I must have missed this memo saying it's OK to leave school 10 mins after the kids. My school has found many ways to cut workload, but no one leaves that early.

OhDearGodLookAtThisMess
Sensible schools know that as long as the job is done it's much better to look after staff.
Some days if I'm tired then I'll get to work around half 8 having had a leisurely breakfast and done a bit of planning. Other days in in before 7am. Some days I leave around 330, other days it's 630pm. Thankfully I'm at a school who trust us to do our jobs.

Contractually it's perfectly fine to leave after whatever your school's designated time is. One thing I do when I look for jobs is I drive past the school at 730am and 6pm (ish) and look at how many cars are in the car park. I don't want to work in a place where there's pressure to be seen on site at all hours.

I must have missed this memo saying it's OK to leave school 10 mins after the kids. My school has found many ways to cut workload, but no one leaves that early.

You appear to equate being present with doing work. Most duties can be done outside the building.

I must have missed this memo saying it's OK to leave school 10 mins after the kids. My school has found many ways to cut workload, but no one leaves that early*

I try to leave at least once a week within 30 mins. I have members of my department who go at that time most days. They are on top of their job and so I admire them for putting other commitments first

There are also staff members who choose to come in early. Or burn the midnight oil at home.
Anything could be happening at home. It's only been a couple of weeks

I must have missed this memo saying it's OK to leave school 10 mins after the kids. My school has found many ways to cut workload, but no one leaves that early.

Have you considered reading your terms and conditions? I don't (often) leave early either, but I'm aware I can.

In some ways I don't really think it should need spelling out

My manager thinks things 'don't need spelling out'. As a result there is no cohesion at all.

Meeting times are not scheduled in the school day - it's just the culture of the school and there's nothing I can do about it.

You don't have a regular meeting with your TLR holders? My boss also says there's 'nothing he can do' about the direct running of his department. It's a sentiment I find odd.

I think you need to find a way to regularly and clearly communicate your expectations, strategy and priorities to your second. This shouldn't be outside of directed time.

I agree with those that say you just need to tell her that you need to see her to ensure all is running smoothly in your dept.

I am a HoD and I have timetabled a meeting into the school day with each member of my depart once a fornight. Sometimes this is early in the morning or over lunch if it suits the staff member better.

I have two young children and I miss them. I have one late day per week where I run a catch up club, and aside from that leave after the final lesson, which is 4.15pm. I have then collected them in time for dinner and a play, then I will work at home after they're in bed. For me it's part of my work life balance and I don't care what other staff think.

She may just want time with her DC and she is entitled to this if she's worked her contracted hours. You shouldn't tell people to hang around late just because you think they should. Schedule your meeting and then let her balance her life around work as she sees fit.

In my first HOD role I had a similar issue in that my second in dept would literally disappear at the end of her last lesson. As in the bell would go, she’d dismiss the class and then leave out of the fire door without even saying goodbye. And that would be that for the day. It was just so strange, there was no ‘have a nice evening’ or ‘see you tomorrow’, and our department was in a separate building so no one else around. It made it really difficult to talk about anything, because there was no opportunity for even 5 minutes of catch up. I would always have to schedule a proper MEETING just to talk about the most basic department issues.