Why is English officially easier than maths?

[theduchessstill]

I'm just trying to understand the data and how it is arrived at; it's not my forte. A hypothetical English department gets, for instance, 55% at grade 5 and above, and the maths department in the same school gets roughly 43%. The English department ends up with a very negative P8 score, and the maths department a markedly better one (though still shit). This suggests that pupils who achieved the same scores at Y6 went on to perform better in English than in maths nationally.

Why? Other than English being easier(it isn't - well, obviously it is for some kids, but the opposite would be true for others) what other factors could be at play here that I'm too stupid to understand?

Statistical computer programming written by mathematicians? Sorry, cynical English teacher here (but not in England so no idea)

I’m good at English and poor at maths, so maybe not the person to answer. But, with English there is nothing to understand, it’s all just a case of engaging. And not much to remember.
Spag comes naturally if you have been brought up to speak grammatically.
I know it’s just a case of how your mind works, but( although literature is a great love on my life) it’s not complex.
So I’d say English is much easier.

Sorry came up in active but just to say it most definitely is not easier for me. I can get A* and A all round in GCSE and A level in Maths and struggled to get a B in English. I read every day but my spelling is appalling and I have no idea what a verb or noun is. The information just does not stick! I can't use apostrophes properly - I'm just totally rubbish at English.
I now work as an associate health professional with a masters degree but don't ask me what a noun is

Possibly though with Maths there is always a correct answer, with English and essays it's easier to pick up marks?

Maybe that cohort had higher KS2 reading than KS2 maths, that's why the maths progress is better, despite being fewer getting 5+?

The Att8 estimates are quite different for Maths and English up to low level 5 KS2. The gap narrows as the prior attainment increases. In a school with lots of low prior attainers then, the discrepancy between Maths and English would be pronounced.

Sorry FallenMadonna, what are Att8 estimates? I didn't know there was any estimating going on at KS2 - I thought the P8 scores were derived from students' actual achievements? Do you mean children are expected to do less well at KS2 in maths than English? And that this is most pronounced in low achieving students? Sorry to be so thick - it just makes my head hurt!

But, with English there is nothing to understand, . Please tell that to my set 7 Y11 class, Ohyesiam !

Here are the actual attainment figures for English and maths compared to KS2 fine result that Fallen was talking about. English outperforms maths until you hit kids with a fine level of 5.6 at KS2.

I haven't looked at any stats lately but do believe that anecdotally and statistically, it has long been 'harder' to get A*s at A level and GCSE in English (and similar subjects). There are a whole range of reasons for this , though, hence my speech marks, not last the fact that any Tom, Dick or Harriet (and their parents) thinks they can do A Level English, whereas maths tends to be a bit more self selecting and selective at A Level. It's be a foolish person who selected their A levels based on statistical probability of achieving higher grades.

Anecdotally, my classes often tell me they find English Lit the hardest subject at GCSE (and this observation most often comes from the brightest end : they can't see what they need to do to get better and feel there is too much material to remember : as a parent of a DC in year 11 last year , I'd certainly agree with that point of view compared to many other GCSEs).

The exam boards have mucked it all up this year with panic re-marks at GCSE, resulting in way more grade 9s than they should have given...

Clearly English teachers are better than their mathematical colleagues.

Thing is, GCSE grade boundaries are set based on KS2 data of the cohort, so they must be deliberately setting the grade boundaries in order that maths perform worse than English.
Even if maths teachers are great or English teachers are crap, the kids will always do roughly as expected from their KS2 results.

I’m also not clear about how that English Attainment score is calculated - for Attainment 8 it’s the best of English lang and lit double-weighted provided both are taken, but maths is always double-weighted. Presumably the weakest kids aren’t entered for lit, so you’d expect to see a jump in attainment at around the level they’d start to be entered and gain double-weighting but I can’t see it.

It’s because of the right/wrong nature of maths.

It is easier to excel at maths (if it happens to be something you’re good at) and also easier to fail by getting a very low score (which would be unlikely to happen in English unless you didn’t bother writing anything - you would still pick up some marks). This can be observed in maths at all levels up to university - maths students are more likely to get a first at degree level but also more likely to get a third, whereas the English students are more likely to cluster around the 2:1, 2:2 area.

Hence you’re more likely to have a higher percentage of maths pupils at the lower level grades, however good the school is. As grade 5 is a mid-level grade, this is reflected by a smaller percentage at grade 5 and above.

Noble Is that right about grade boundaries? I know they use KS2 data to set targets, obviously, but I thought the grade boundaries were set once a cohort has sat the exam and they see how they've done?

As for low ability students not doing lit, that would seem logical, but in my school all must do it because of the fact that their Eng grade can then be double weighted. The problem, or one of the problems, is that the kids can't cope with doing the two courses and end with a lower grade in both than they might otherwise have got. Still, head knows best .

Yes, grade boundaries are set once the cohort has sat the exam, but the exam boards, monitored by Ofqual use comparable outcomes to decide where they are set and avoid grade inflation.

Comparable outcomes means that they look at the KS2 profile of the cohort and ensure that on average, students will achieve the same grade in the current year as a student with the same KS2 profile achieved the previous year.

I don't know about the stats, but could it be to do with maths being a "ladder" subject, where each new topic is always building on previous understanding? So if a student fails to grasp, say, fractions, they will struggle with any element of maths that builds on this as they go further with their maths education.

If a student struggles with basic algebra, then I guess a large amount of the maths syllabus becomes pretty inaccessible to them. If they're regularly missing school in y7/y8, then I think this would have a bigger impact in maths than some other subjects?

In English, as well, nearly all the other school subjects will reinforce basic literacy skills most lessons. Whereas I would think it's only really science and technology subjects that would be using maths skills regularly, so there are less chances to practice.

In English, as well, nearly all the other school subjects will reinforce basic literacy skills most lessons. Erm... yeah. Sarcasm not aimed at pp, but the other faculties in my school who are definitely not reinforcing basic literacy - and basic literacy being secure won't get them much of a grade anyway, tbf. There is more to it. I do take the point about maths not being reinforced, but, on the other hand, neither is it undermined by the world around them either. Unfortunately, a lot of our students are exposed to poor literacy multiple times a day - in and out of school. Though, as I said, I don't think literacy is the main issue.

@piggywaspushed - that's interesting that your adept students find it the hardest GCSE subject. I have to say my view of English in schools has enormously changed since I started TA'ing - all through my academic life it came so easily to me that I couldn't understand how it could be challenging for anybody really, now I find it the hardest subject to support in by some margin.
So hard to break it down if a pupil doesn't 'get it', and if they're having to learn all the stuff that we take for granted there is an enormous amount of content. Just stuff like writing a Peel paragraph - to me that's the most obvious thing in the world but if they have to remind themselves each time what it stands for, what it means etc. it's so demanding.

I'm really impressed with the way English is taught at my school as the teachers are so good at making it as accessible as possible. However, it is a lot of 'learning stuff' rather than engaging with material. I'm grasping just how weak some of our students literacy is and it is a shocking and depressing tbh.

We just have to keep trying I suppose pingu ! The other issue is that it often helps to have some knowledge of the world : history, society, geography :and this seems very limited in many young people these days :(