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Original poster

20 years of educational fads

236 replies

Piggywaspushed · 19/03/2018 17:33

This article on Teacher Toolkit is actually two years old so I am sure we could update it! (SLANT anyone??) but it appeared on my Twitter feed and I thought MN might find it diverting:

www.teachertoolkit.co.uk/2016/07/10/education-fads/

loving that triple marking is declared a fad.

Send to all your SLTs! I dare you!!

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echt · 02/04/2018 23:09

Anything, absolutely anything connected with that colossal wanker John Hattie. My school loves him. I am expected to look up and follow his research. What has he said?

In a nutshell, his research methodology is entirely bobbins.

networkonnet.wordpress.com/2015/05/16/hatties-research-is-wrong-part-4-a-kind-of-svengali/

danhaesler.com/2014/11/17/is-john-talking-through-his-hattie/
ollieorange2.wordpress.com/2014/08/25/people-who-think-probabilities-can-be-negative-shouldnt-write-books-on-statistics/

www.npr.org/sections/ed/2015/08/13/430050765/five-big-ideas-that-don-t-work-in-education

Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 03/04/2018 07:55

I agree but I am alarmed that anyone who criticises him tends to come from the Michaela/ Daisy Christodoulou end of the spectrum and they themselves use ideologically loaded words and flawed research to come up with their own 'philosophies' - or in some cases no research at all (looking at you Daisy!) other than their own (limited) experiences...

Only yesterday, Nick Gibb was lauding somebody who was pulling Hattie apart : and that , in itself, is equally worrying.

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ShortandAnnoying · 03/04/2018 08:02

I'm not a teacher but we have a new HM at our school and he is always bringing in new initiatives. On the latest school newsletter he wrote a message telling us how they are aiming for GREAT teaching. I just get the feeling the teachers must do this Hmm every time they open an e-mail from him.

Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 03/04/2018 08:05

Also... look carefully at the articles deriding Hattie for errors : two of them make (much more basic!) errors themselves. Pots and kettles spring to mind!

Oh, I know what! Maybe they should just start listening to, y'know, actual classroom teachers? With at least more than three years experience..

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Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 03/04/2018 08:07

GREAT teaching! I have heard this one recently (we have some new behaviour thing now which is so catchy I have forgotten it)

I think one of the MATs mentioned upthread talks about GREAT teaching. It makes me think of Tony the Tiger, personally!

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noblegiraffe · 03/04/2018 08:13

You’re not defending Hattie are you Piggy?
The first person I saw slate Hattie was Dylan Wiliam (of Assessment for Learning fame) and he’s no flighty Teach-Firster.

Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 03/04/2018 08:19

No,not defending Hattie but feel growing concern about the agendas of some who are leaping up and down to discredit him.

Anyway, since my school is, as you know, in the Dark Ages (ca 1997), I feel maybe three members of staff have heard of him at my place so I may well be safe!

I like Dylan Wiliam, though!

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ShortandAnnoying · 03/04/2018 08:30

Does GREAT stand for something? The newsletter didn't explain. My guess Government Regulated Educationally Average Twaddle.

echt · 03/04/2018 08:59

Hattie deserves criticism because he has basic flaws in his methodology. His meta-research model is flawed, i.e.rubbish in=rubbish out. The fact that he elects to discard the single most influential affect on attainment, i.e. class , says it all.

mje.mcgill.ca/article/view/9475/7229

MiaowTheCat · 03/04/2018 09:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 03/04/2018 09:10

I think given it's in capitals it does... or the head feels the need to SHOUT at parents in case they are hard of understanding ....

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keiratwiceknightly · 03/04/2018 09:15

As an aside... I used to teach the son of the Tony The Tiger actor. Tony himself was a huge American guy with a deep voice.

Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 03/04/2018 09:16

Now, once again,I may sound like I am defending Hattie . There are many pseudo statisticians out there (Didau, for example, who I rather like...) but statisticians are very quick to sneer at Hattie for not being a statto, when in fact he has a PhD! That probably does make it worse for him, though...

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Springforwars · 03/04/2018 09:35

And every fad is an attempt to deflect away from the reality that learning is tough and developing a competence is repetitive and by its very nature boring. That's why a hard worker can top an indifferent talent.

Appuskidu · 03/04/2018 10:30

And every fad is an attempt to deflect away from the reality that learning is tough and developing a competence is repetitive and by its very nature boring. That's why a hard worker can top an indifferent talent.

So true and probably one of the most sensible things I’ve ever read about education!

Can you be our education Minister, please?! Grin

echt · 03/04/2018 11:58

but statisticians are very quick to sneer at Hattie for not being a statto, when in fact he has a PhD! That probably does make it worse for him, though

When the stats are fucked, it's not sneering.

noblegiraffe · 03/04/2018 12:09

I don’t understand how someone with a lot of statistics in their background can fail to see the fatal flaw in their work.

Cochrane do the same sort of meta-analyses for medicine. Clinical research is highly regulated and much better conducted in general than education research (though there are plenty of crap clinical studies out there, Cochrane discard them from their analyses). They don’t attempt to quantify the effects of interventions, their results are a descriptive paragraph including the limitations of the evidence. E.g. see here for antibiotics use against the common cold www.cochrane.org/CD000247/ARI_antibiotics-for-the-common-cold-an-infection-of-the-upper-respiratory-tract

Compare that to Hattie’s output.

Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 03/04/2018 13:43

No echt I meant the sneering was directed at the wrong thing so rather than 'oh he's not a statistician, what would he know?' they should be saying 'oh my God ; he's actually a statistician ??!??'

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noblegiraffe · 03/04/2018 13:49

I just googled and found Mr Hattie’s CV. It’s 45 pages long! He has certainly been busy. Still wrong though.

cdn.auckland.ac.nz/assets/education/hattie/docs/cv-john-hattie.pdf

Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 03/04/2018 13:54

He's quite old , isn't he?

No offence to people form NZ but I have never been quite sure why we are so in thrall to an educationalist from the antipodes!

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noblegiraffe · 03/04/2018 14:00

More or less than Doug Lemov?

Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 03/04/2018 14:34

More I'd say!

And don't forget Dweck!

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noblegiraffe · 03/04/2018 14:47

Bloody Dweck.

I actually really like a lot of Lemov’s Teach Like a Champion but SLANT and the like are a step too far for me.

TuftedLadyGrotto · 03/04/2018 14:50

I had an argument with a member of SLT about bloody growth mindset. It was Olympic year and they wanted us to use olympians as examples.

I pointed out that I could try and try and try, and train and train with the best coaches in the world and I would never be a first class olympian. Because there needs to be some inherent talent as well as body shape, natural ability.

He wouldn't have it.

Original poster
Piggywaspushed · 03/04/2018 15:18

Ridiculous : poor Dweck is fairly typical of all this faddishness as no one has ever read everything she says. She herself would know that that was patently obvious.

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