Behaviour in sixth form lessons

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Just a generic one really before I expose my parenting and ask for help with DS on another thread! Have teachers noticed in general that behaviour has declined amongst sixth form recently?

The last time I remember noticing this was 20 years ago when I started where I am now and was appalled by the behaviour of some boys in form time - but then , for a while students seem to become more earnest and focused.

I am long used to the age old issues of low attendance and poor punctuality and students missing deadlines and not submitting work - but definitely behaviour has declined. And I am talking real year 8 / 9 type behaviours- actual disruption! Talking over the teacher and to each other, laughing at private jokes, phone use , farting (yes really!!) , packing away early,arguing and so on. I despair.

I hear about this in both my own school and DSs, so I wondered if other had a) similar feelings about decline and b) any thoughts on why.

I shouldn't gender behaviour but it does seem largely confined to boys and , in my area at least, this was the year (year 12) of a demographic blip where there were more boys born that girls. I could blame class size , too, I suppose , but my son's class is a reasonable size. I could also blame poor teaching but - to be honest - at 16 and 17 years old one should be able to show basic respect and make life easier not harder for teachers.

Thoughts?

This thread is really depressing as I have a new job where I’ll fonally be teaching A Level in September and have looked forward to it so much! One of the things I was especially excited about was to have a class free of KS3 style behaviour issues!

I can’t help but make some links here with the ‘ridiculous parenting’ thread active at the moment. I have found more and more students recently coming up into high school who just don’t seem to grasp the concept of hearing the word ‘no’ or being expected to do something they don’t want to do. I think children are being infantilised by society and prevented from takin responsibility. And they are so used to being constantly entertained. And have decreasing attention spans. I do feel a little bit pessimistic about teaching much longer...

What gets me so much is that if the students fail it’s our fault as teachers. If they do well it’s got nothing to do with us, it’s their hard work.

Plus the spoon feeding is unreal. Sometimes I have to tell them ‘you need to actually write this down’

There is no come back - students I’ve had problems with are still in college 2 years on despite me warning the SLT they WILL fail. Attendance is 46% and they have not completed a single piece of work.

Teacher1326 In your shoes I would stop the lesson the minute these girls started throwing things around and state, 'I am not prepared to allow you to remain in my lesson and disrupt other peoples' A levels.'

I would tell them to leave or call SLT to remove them every single time they disrupted the lesson. It is not fair on the 11-12 other pupils that are desperately trying to get a decent A level in your subject and you have an obligation to them - not to the ones who are messing about. I would be doing exactly the same with any Y12s who disrupt too. I've taught for about 30 years now and I am absolutely blunt with pupils about 'you chose to take my subject for A level and you do not need to be here'.

If SLT are not supportive ask them bluntly what you are supposed to say to the other 12 pupils who are likely to get a lower A grade than they may have done, due to the disruption - or to their parents?

A level not A grade!

We need to go back to kids being held responsible for their own results. It's no wonder teachers feel compelled to micro-manage when their jobs and pay are dependent on the results of kids who know that the teachers will do all the running.

I've found even if students aren't disruptive there are a few who are just not engaged. Sometimes, the rest of the class and I have had a really good discussion, come up with a great model answer and then 1 or 2 students who've been totally disinterested (even with prompting) look up, photograph what's on the board and then carry on daydreaming! There is no processing of the information at all, maybe they think they'll absorb it from their phones by osmosis. I tend to keep them back and voice my concerns (even to the point of asking them why they are bothering to turn up if they aren't participating) and they get insulted because they think that not being disruptive and taking a picture means they've done what's needed!

I used to chuck a level students out of my classroom if they were pissing about or if they'd not done the prep needed for the lesson to progress. There's no 6th form at my current school but I sincerely doubt I would be allowed to do that now.

Infantalising of young people goes back way past 6th form age though. I was reading a thread earlier about a 12 year old who wasn't allowed to use a toaster. I'm only 35 but I remember at 12 attending a 'steamed pudding day' challenge with 3 other girls from my guide pack. We were put in a field for the day, with the ingredients we'd bought ourselves the day before, gathered firewood, lit and kept the fire going all day, and cooked a beef stew with dumplings and a steamed treacle pudding.

I'm with you Belfast! I have a couple like this and have spoken to the pair of them and bluntly said, 'At this rate you will fail your A level and that is fine by me. It genuinely won't affect me in the slightest - but what is the point of you wasting two years?'

I have offended them highly, and they have indignantly told me, 'You DO care about us!' only to be told, 'Nope. I'm mildly fond of you and have taught you for the last few years, but you go ahead and fail your A level if you like. I genuinely won't care. I made it very plain to you how much work was involved before you signed up for it'. They have then buckled down a bit!

I don't tolerate misbehaviour in Sixth Form. They piss about, talk over me, refuse to respect 'no phones' etc., they leave. They miss the lesson and have to catch up the work.

Trouble is, if they fail their A levels is does affect us. That's where we're screwed.

Don't spoon feed-they need to be independent.

Why is their data shit? Have you set detentions? Phoned parents? Made them.come to intervention? Set extra work? Made them 're do essays?

I'm on the brink of giving up.I'm tucking sick of it.

The best thing I ever did was move away from mainstream school. I know not everyone has that option, but the increase in the amount of spoon-feeding at GCSE and the fact that for A level I was generally teaching kids I'd also taught for the previous 5 years meant that whole "when you get to 6th form it's so different - you get treated like an adult" thing was complete bull. Teaching different kids in a different building where the only people I feel accountable to is them has been a massive eye opener. They call me by my first name, I treat them as young adults and not kids. Not one of them has turned a piece of work in late. Expectations are different.

A few years ago, when I was still in a school, I got mightily sick of my Year 13 group - I don't think I taught a lesson with all of them in it all year. Made it nigh on impossible to plan for a practical subject as they were all so reliant on each other.

Flask I understand what you are saying, and perhaps I'm old enough and senior enough to be bolshy but I do not feel screwed if pupils fail their A level. I've not had one do it yet - but that's because they used to take AS, get a U, and have to drop the subject. Next year will be interesting...

However, I am still taking the line of 'go ahead and fuck up your own A level' and am prepared to kick them out of class if they don't meet my expectations. I am happy to stand my ground and say to SLT, These students have all hit their target/got a decent A level because I taught them well and there was no pissing about, and they worked hard. These other students have failed because they didn't do the reading/were sent out for misbehaving/chose not to revise. I cannot help those who do not wish to be in my lesson or are not prepared to do the work necessary.

There is no way teachers can force any student to do the work needed to achieve an A level in a subject. A levels are tough - and you need to buckle down and do a lot of independent work to add to the lessons. I don't tolerate misbehaviour - piss about and you can piss off is my attitude - because it's unfair on the students who are hard working and genuinely want to get a good grade. Why should their lives/Uni grades be impinged on by others?

We aren’t allowed to kick kids off courses and we are screwed if they don’t get the results. You could be as bolshy as you like but it would be ignored.

We can't even kick kids off the course if both they and us want them to leave cos it makes us look bad!

To be fair, none of my kids are badly behaved, just lazy and apathetic. But at least they play interested, engaged and co operative when I'm observed, so that's part of the battle. And I'd still rather my 6th form c lasses than a raft of ks3.

Oh, and getting unconditional offers from unis(v common now higher fees are in) don't help. "I don't really need to get higher than x now, do i?"
"Well... you don't, but could you maybe tr y for that A so I can hit my appraisal target and not get put on competency? Take very much."

Genuinely interested, folks and not being a GF - but I am NUT and this is their appraisal checklist for last year.
www.teachers.org.uk/sites/default/files2014/appraisal-checklist-final-october-2016.pdf

As far as I am aware nothing has changed. Highlighted in red as 'required by law or non negotiable' is this:

^The policy avoids the use of raw numerical targets?
 If numerical targets are used, where possible these should be agreed with the teacher, but in all cases must be reasonable, recognising that circumstances outside teachers’ control may significantly affect success^

How can you be screwed if you don't get results? Appraisals should not include unachievable targets based on pupils results. You cannot possibly be held responsible for the student whose parent died/divorced/got cancer. Or the one who smoked weed throughout the year. Or the one who partied every weekend/left home/shacked up with bf. You can't do much with the one whose attendance is way too low - or the one who never comes to school on a Monday....etc

I would be fucking bolshy if told I had failed because any of these dropped a grade. Besides which, for me as a History teacher frequently 'target grades' appear to be plucked from the air! I have got no Y12 on less than a C grade target - and yet some of them did not achieve this at GCSE and frankly it is ludicrous to imagine that all of them will achieve higher than this - but apparently the software doesn't accept less than a C grade target!

but in all cases must be reasonable

This is the issue, isn’t it. All too woolly. Who defines “reasonable”?

I think it is unreasonable to expect to take large numbers into the sixth form with a 'bums on seats' mentality and then expect staff to drag them through A levels they may not be up to.

I am perfectly well aware that I have some Y12s who decided they would take, say, Health and Social Care, Business Studies and then couldn't think of a third one and someone (SLT) suggested, 'How about History - you got a C in that'. Well yeah - with a lot of spoon-feeding. There is no way they will get a decent A level though - and certainly are unlikely to get a C grade in History if they are disinterested and only took it because they couldn't think of another subject they preferred.

I also think that’s unreasonable, but could point you on the direction of a number of SLT who will claim it is perfectly reasonable (not to mention worth £4000 to the school) to expect young Mr or Ms X to turn their C at GCSE into a decent A Level grade. I’ve had 6th formers who haven’t even taken my subject at GCSE!

In some schools, sticking your head above the parapet would not be advisable, however right you were to do so.

Me too! I am deeply unhappy at having to take students who dropped History in Y9 but think they will be ok to take it at A level. Even more unhappy at SLT who agreed this - and have said so openly.

I had specified a minimum of a B grade GCSE as an entry requirement, and then SLT take anyone who they can on the day. I have shrugged and accepted this, but made it very clear to my line manager that the reason I specified a B grade at GCSE was that if a student cannot achieve this then they are unlikely to have the ability to write decent history essays at A level - and there is a huge amount of extra reading required. They will only be able to turn their C at GCSE into a decent A level grade if they put the effort in...

I know noble is Maths - and my colleague who teaches that at A level is adamant that you couldn't pass an A level in that subject with a D/C grade at GCSE. I have no idea what is going to happen now that AS has gone.

I agree absolutely, noble and have worked in several - but will not agree that I have failed to meet my appraisal if it comes down to pupils' lack of effort. Horse to water and all that! And I would be involving my union if it came down to competency procedures.

Wow, only just seen people have come back to this thread! I will read the more recent posts properly later but one thing made me LOL as they say! Upthread someone mentions the 11 or 12 other students. Hahahahhaha. Those were the days!

Since I first posted on this thread behaviour in my own school's sixth form has become worse .Not issues in lessons for me as such (although poor work ethic and attendance are galling) but things like bringing in alcohol, bullying, sexual harassment! [shock}