Intimidated by a child

[CanadaMoose91]

I feel like I'm being silly about this, as I am the adult in the situation, but please give me some thoughts on what's going on...

I am a primary school teacher and I find one of my students very frightening. I am a small woman, and though this boy is only 9, he is much taller and stronger than me. He has had violent tendencies and often bullies other students, but has never lashed out at a teacher. No known SEN, though English is not his first language.

Obviously I step in whenever I see or am informed of any bullying and immediately take him to the behaviour manager. The issue is, I am very intimidated by this boy and am quite nervous when on my own with him. I do worry for my safety, but the safety of the other children has to come before my own, and he must be removed from play when he shows violence. I also don't want him to walk all over me, so I put on a brave face. But I am so worried!

Am I just being a worry wart? What can I do to make myself less unnerved? Any thoughts are so much appreciated.

I think it's really worrying that kids have to go to school with someone who's behaviour makes them nervous. The school surely needs to address this?
I agree. If only it was that easy or straightforward.

palebluesky "Italian, the teacher has said she feels intimidated by the boy. She has not, apart from his size (which really he cannot help!) given any reasoning behind this."

Well, she has said in her opening post "He has had violent tendencies and often bullies other students, but has never lashed out at a teacher."

This may be why the teacher feels intimidated by him. But even if the teacher were not in the slightest intimidated by him the fact he "...has had violent tendencies and often bullies other students..." would be enough for me to think there needs to be an intervention to see why he is doing this, what can be done to stop it and what needs to happen if it cannot be stopped.

"...he absolutely should not be permanently excluded from mainstream school and removed to a special unit on the basis of a feeling, no matter how powerful that feeling may be."

Who is talking about removing him on the basis of a feeling. He is bullying other children. I guess it depends to what extent this is, is it name calling, steeling pencils etc? Or is it violent actions, intimidation, abuse of some kind. Because 'violent tendencies' doesn't suggest a bit of name calling.

LornaD40 "I agree. If only it was that easy or straightforward."

Do you work outside the home?

Can you imagine if you were at work and someone was physically intimidating you and you went to the boss and told them how you felt and how awful it was, and she or he said ...

"I agree. If only it was that easy or straightforward."

No known SEN. I would like to say though, that regardless of my feelings, I am doing everything possible to help this boy and the kids he is bullying.

I can't post why I feel uneasy, as it would give too much information about the child. There have been previous incidents outside of the school that make me seriously question why he is permitted in a mainstream school - but details cannot be given. I apologise for being unhelpful in that sense, but I will not breach his privacy.

Team Teach is what I would like to do, so I am speaking with the head regarding that. Thank you for all the helpful advice, this is pointing me in the right direction.

palebluesky "As for bullying the other children, that's awful and unacceptable, should be dealt with and dealt with severely but not by removing him to somewhere that can cater for his 'needs' (what do you think this place would be?)"

Well, I do think it should be dealt with by the school. So we agree.

But if they cannot deal with it then I do know there are special schools for children with behavioral issues and these schools cater for these kids and aim to get them back into mainstream school after helping them to overcome their antisocial behaviour.

"I'm unsure why you felt the need to adopt a tone that was at once belligerent and patronising,"

I think typing doesn't really use a tone. Except when one uses capitals to shout, which I have not done. So if you sense a tone in my typing, I think it is imagined.

Canada you really do not need to give details of why this boy is intimidating to you or the multiple (how many?) pupils he is bullying. You just need to make sure every single incident is passed on until the squeaky wheel gets the grease!

You are doing the right thing by not giving away any further details. We are not here to judge you, only to help you think it through, and offer advice if we have any, which you are free to ignore.

How sad that your teaching time and expertise are tied up in this one boy.

palebluesky " but yes, I do work in a school"

It doesn't really bother me if you understand where I am coming from. But of course if you do work in a school then understanding these issues will be important, for you, and that is why I said it was relevant if you worked in a school. Because these issues will be real for you.

I don't want to over analise but your post mentioned...

"... and many children will go through a physical fight."

I have never been in a physical fight, ever, not at school and not since. My children, so far, at 6 and 12 have never to my knowledge been in a physical fight. I've helped in schools and never seen anything close to a physical fight when I was a helper. Except, when I helped in a school for behavioral issues, as part of a course, very briefly, and saw some sort of 'confutation', which I would not describe as a fight.

So maybe it is very common but I've not seen it. And anyway, we are not talking about a fight, we are talking about bullying, which is quite a different. The OP did not say he gets into fights she has said he bullies students, plural.

"Many children will bully, many will be bullied." I am not sure I understand where you are going with this, is it all tit for tat, normal?

Maybe stealing pencils and telling each other to shut up etc is but real, systematic bullying is not the same and is hugely damaging. I am sure you know this but the suggestion of this post you just made sounded more like this is all a part of normal schooling. I really do not think it should be, or should be accepted as such.

"In the first instance the onus is on the school to manage it, not to assume the child is beyond help and send them to a special unit, which are very, very rare and for cases far more severe than this sounds."

Indeed, I 100% agree with you. Does it sound like this school is handling it? Because it doesn't to me. How long will it go on before something is done?

I do not expect you to give me any answers and I am really not talking a tone with you, I was answering the OP with my honest opinion on the situation. You seemed to disagree with my view so then I was 'defending' (if you will) my position.

You do not need to agree with me at all, of course, but I am entitled to my opinion, and that is that bullying is tolerated far too much in schools (I can only speak for the schools my kids have attended).

And, if you are curious where my strength of feeling comes from it is from empathy. Targets/victims need to be prioritized and in doing so the bully can also be prioritized to stop them doing the behavior, because it won't be helping them either.

I was not a target/victim of any kind of major bullying, nor have my kids been, thankfully, but I am very concerned that schools do not do enough about this. And if an adult teacher is intimidated by a pupil this is very bad news to me.

But I don't have any ax to grind with you, palebluesky, honestly.

Thank you, Italian. He is bullying at least 3 students. I say at least because he speaks a different language on the playground, so I only know of any physical abuse that I see happening or verbal abuse that is reported to me by children who can understand.

Italian it is entirely possible I was being rather touchy, but:

if you do not know why I would call a physically strong child with violent tendencies who often bullies other kids and had intimidated a teacher, a horror, I can't help you understand

did appear to have a bit 'tone' to it. If I read it and therefore you wrong, then I am sorry.

I think, and sorry to pick your post apart a bit, but:

• he can't help being physically strong!
• violent tendencies is obviously awful: I will return to that
• bullying other kids, likewise
• intimidated a teacher: the problem is that OPs description of his intimidation isn't really about anything that the child has done to her but rather how she feels about him. As I've said, I understand this - I had similar uneasy feelings once myself about a child, albeit an older one, but we can't really punish someone based on how we feel about them.

As for the violent tendencies and the bullying - it is absolutely unacceptable and needs dealing with. Like you, I've never been in a physical fight at school but I've had some real cat and dog ones with my brother and at primary age, sometimes they happen not through deep seated attitudinal problems but because of a combination of immaturity, poor role models (if someone hits you, hit them back being taken to mean 'if someone gives you a funny look hit them before they hit you!) silly 'horseplay' turning into something more physical and sometimes anger and frustration.

As for 'many children will bully, many will be bullied' - no, I did not mean it is tit for tat or should remotely be accepted as normal but rather that I feel jumping to the most extreme punishment there is - removal of the child on a permanent basis from mainstream school for some bullying in primary school - is overkill.

It does not sound to me as if the school is handling it but, and I mean this gently, OP is the class teacher. She has to play her part in this as well. The school will have an anti bullying policy: she needs to follow it. Has she contacted this boys parents, tried to find some positive things he can do at social times, sat him away from anyone potentially vulnerable? I am sure she has, but my point is there are a range of strategies that need to be worked through including fixed term exclusions before anyone can even mention permanent exclusion. And rightly so. In some circumstances, it's the right thing for some children who's behaviour is impeding on the education and wellbeing of many. But that doesn't mean as soon as it starts to impede we get rid.

Horror at that awful grammar.

violent tendencies ARE obviously wrong

I need to go to bed, I think! Mortification. Must name change at once :)

Pale "if you do not know why I would call a physically strong child with violent tendencies who often bullies other kids and had intimidated a teacher, a horror, I can't help you understand

did appear to have a bit 'tone' to it. If I read it and therefore you wrong, then I am sorry."

And I am sorry if I came across as arssy, this is a topic which I find very significant and I do tend to get a bit up on my high horse about it!

I guess, I just felt it's obvious why I would call such child a horror, but it doesn't mean I do not think they need helping! Honestly. I don;t want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

"he can't help being physically strong!"

Of course he cannot. It is what he is doing with it that is the issue. Is he using the physical strength and the intimidation that might come with it to bully other children?
if yes, - Issue.

Is he just a big, tall, strapping lad who uses his strength to help teachers carry books and hold doors open?
if no, -No issue.

(MY dd is very physically strong and always has been, she has had some violent tendencies, - issue.)

• violent tendencies - again, how does this play out, feeling angry and full of rage but not doing anything with it

no issue using his rage and physical strength on others, or threatening to, issue.

• bullying other kids

never OK, could be sign he is being abused at home, worth investigating, could be a sign he has learnt the fastest way to get what he wants is to use his strength

• intimidated a teacher:

the problem is that OPs description of his intimidation isn't really about anything that the child has done to her but rather how she feels about him.

I am not sure this is totally true, the OP has soem sort of evidence which she rightly does not feel able to divvulge, it does seem to be more than a feeling. But even so, feelings of the gut can point us in the right direction. They are not evidence but may help us find it/avoid danger/etc.

"As I've said, I understand this - I had similar uneasy feelings once myself about a child, albeit an older one, but we can't really punish someone based on how we feel about them."

I am not suggesting the school does that, I suggest the school looks into what he is actually doing now, stops it or if they cannot stop it then he must go somewhere where they can stop, or it will only escalate.

Google around a bit and you may find the stories about

"Boy, 10, who stabbed teacher in chest with a pencil"

"A 14-year-old boy who stabbed a supply teacher"

"Boy, 16, winked at fellow student before stabbing teacher"

Now I know there is a massive difference between a pencil and a knife and a nine year old and a sixteen year old but I do think that we have to be aware that children can, and do, do awful things to each other and to adults.

So when we are worried about a particular child the last thing we want to do is ignore those fears.

"I've had some real cat and dog ones with my brother and at primary age" OK if we are including those then yes, my sister and I did a bit of fighting and so do my kids!

As for 'many children will bully, many will be bullied' - no, I did not mean it is tit for tat or should remotely be accepted as normal but rather that I feel jumping to the most extreme punishment there is - removal of the child on a permanent basis from mainstream school for some bullying in primary school - is overkill."

I am a bit of a reactionary, yes. But luckily, I do not work in a school. So the kids are safe! But you need people like me to keep on saying, hang on what is happening. My kids were not (so far, thank God) bullied but I heard from friends about incidents, quite serious, and I offered all support I could. Offered to go into schools with the parent etc. But when it is not happening to your kid you cannot always talk to school as they might say, none of your business. But it is my business if my is at a school where a boy of 11 is going round 'threatening' to rape younger girls. I don't want my kids to go to that kind of place.

'The school will have an anti bullying policy' I know all schools have these policies, I am not sure that the school really takes them seriouslyu.

OP I would work to the letter of that law, both to cover you for whatever might happen and to, again, be that squeaky wheel!

Don't worry about your grammar! My spelling is awful, I think I spelled horror wrong! (I am dyslexic, honest!)

Nigh night.

Lorna I didn't say it was straightforward, I said it surely had to be addressed. If it's difficult - and my experience of dealing with troubled kids in other settings suggests it will be - then it's difficult. That doesn't mean it should be allowed.

Do you work outside the home ?Can you imagine if you were at work and someone was physically intimidating you and you went to the boss and told them how you felt and how awful it was, and she or he said ...

Italian - yes, I work in a mainstream children with responsibility for behaviour. I totally agree that children or adults shouldn't be subjected to this, what I meant was I wish it was easy to have them removed. Permanent exclusion isn't straightforward particularly if there are SEN or child protection issues (usually are).

Obv meant mainstream school not children 🙈

Team Teach will help with all the de escalation techniques on an individual basis, but I really wouldn't suggest using any of the restraint techniques on your own as you could place yourself, other children and this child in greater harm. Ideally, it really is best introduced as a whole school technique. At my school, everyone, including office staff, TAs lunchtime staff are trained so that as far as is humanly possible, agreed responses are used.