SchoolsDirect or PGCE??

[nameimadeupjustnow]

I'm planning to start a post-grad teacher training programme of some sort in Sept 2014. But which path to choose? If anyone has experience or thoughts on this, please let me know! If it makes any difference to your answers, I am based in south London, and tied to south/central London for placement choices. Thank you.

Hi, can't help you I'm afraid, but I have the same dilemma!

I've been thinking exactly the same too.

I'm also considering a PT pgce with the OU as my DC are v young. Decisions, decisions.

Sorry op, less than helpful comment number 2.

I hadn't even thought of the OU. Do you know if it's possible to see where their partner schools are for different subjects?

They have a list on their website of partner schools for School Direct. If you do the PGCE, you need to find your own school. Bit daunting, but must be possible...

I chose SD as it meant I was allocated to a specifc school where I am based 4 days (5th days is training at one or other of the alliance schools, and only attend the university a handful of times in the term)

I recommend the IOE or, alternatively, I did my PGCE with Greenwich

Thanks for the 'unhelpful' replies! I know a lot of us are making the same decisions.

OU only offers a PGCE for secondary, and I'm hoping to teach primary. But they may offer primary via SchoolDirect? Not sure.

Slug - please tell me about the PGCE at Greenwich! Have been thinking about Greenwich, LSBU, Goldsmiths... IoE sounds great but is it too late already to apply to them? (They suggest applying in September for a 2014 entry).

SDHopeful I'm glad to hear it's working for you. I like the idea of a more school-based approach, as it's more experience of what I will actually be doing in a classroom. I'm just worried about the level of support in the school? Guess, though, that will vary pretty widely and is also a problem on school placements via PGCE.

My PGCE is Post Compulsory and Adult Education, so a bit different from primary. However, they do tend to employ a lot of ex-teachers at Greenwich which means you get a slightly more practical and, dare I say it, realistic approach from the taught component. I'm not sure how the placement issue works. I was already teaching in a FE college when I did mine so it wasn't an issue for me. A friend of mine started a PGCE (secondary) via the GTP and ended up in placements out in Kent despite living in inner city London.

I would still give the IOE a go. Gaps always appear.

The course I am on shares some lectures with the trad-PGCE students - predominately they are newly-graduated, whereas the SD people are predominately older with a few years professional experience in other types of job. I like the school experience because I am involved on a day to day basis with the whole-school life. Also, we have one day a week out of school on training, which provide a breathing space, and also means we can immediately translate training into real life experience. Also as we are meeting with out fellow SD students every week, is less isolated that being in a university for 5 weeks then out on placement for the next five...One of the teachers told me that when they get trad-PGCE student in on block placements they tend to sit together in the staff-room etc, and not get fully involved with the school. (SD also has to do a placement at a second school in the spring term btw).

If you go schools direct you only get qualified teacher status not a Pgce or pgde. QTS is only valid in England, so if you ever plan to move out of England you will have to re train.

I decided to change career last year and after careful thought opted for post-compulsory. I have started a PGCE at a kent fe college who have just changed from Canterbury Christchurch to Greenwich. Only 1/4 of my course have yet managed to register with Greenwich. It has been total and utter chaos. I am a single parent who works as well and although I have committed time to the academic work and teaching practice, I am angry about the wasted time for application and registration.

Another issue I have is that I was taken on, effectively on an apprenticeship, because you cannot do post-compulsory PGCE unless you have appropriate teaching hours. My mentor has now told me that they are not prepared to mentor me. I feel really let down.

So if at all possible get yourself appropriate volunteer hours - the work placement no longer has to be paid teaching hours. And avoid Greenwich.

Having worked with both PGCE & SD students I would say SD. I have a SD in school at the moment & they're far better than those who come from the traditional PGCE rout. I've also employed a SD trainee and I would say they're far more ready for the rigours of the job.

Kayakingirl not the case that you only get QTS - my SD course is also PGCE with masters credits. Some of the salaried SD do not have PGCE accreditation, some do. Mine is non-salaried and does have PGCE. I don't know what 'post compulsory' is, but this year the SD enrolment was also completely chaotic, which was very stressful, but has now settled down, and they tell us all will be ironed out for '14....

The universities that offer PGCE and SD will try to put you off SD, and encourage trad-pgce because part of the fees for SD course go to the schools and not the universities. The university I am at charges the same fees for SD and PCGE, but I would say the SD get better value for money as we have the (better, imho) school-based training, and will come out with the same PGCE as the university based students... The school-based training is not just a teacher in the staff room chatting, it is serious academic content, Piaget et al..., but delivered by outstanding teachers who work every day in the school environment, So far the lectures by practitioners in the alliance schools have been considerably better prepared and more focused than those we have had (with the regular PGCE students) at the university.

Is the application process for SD via the same GTTR/UCAS route?

'I would say the SD get better value for money as we have the (better, imho) school-based training, and will come out with the same PGCE as the university based students...'

Not always the case, SD hopeful. It will depend on your provider (both school and university) and the agreement they have. Some SD PGCEs are offered at undergraduate, rather than Master's and so result in a Professional rather than PostGraduate Certificate of Education.

As with all things, it is worth looking closely at all of your options. Some university PGCEs will be better, and some SDirect, but you should ask around and look closely at the provision near you.

Don't forget that SD has only started running this year, whereas some universities have been running their training, in partnership with outstanding schools, for a number of years.

SDirect is also Gove's preferred option - I'd be asking why that might be, and some of the answers do not necessarily make for the best training or the best teachers as a result.

Yes there is always the 'Gove invented it therefore it must be bad' position - hardly convincing - smacks of the defensive - but certainly is stance the universities seem to be taking - because their fee income is at stake...

I've posted on here about my PGCE last year (not London) - my mentor was also the class teacher and the deputy head and we did not get on. He marked me down (university said by at least 1 grade in everything), my uni tutor reported him for a lack of support, and I was told afterwards that they didn't know any other student who would have tolerated his attitude and would have walked out. I was regularly on a 90%-100% timetable covering his classes, so not even on NQT timetable. That was for two placements totally 11 weeks. I was like a small child, not wanting to go in because I felt physically sick.

My second school was wonderful, and gave me the confidence to do what I felt was right. I cried lots, but from them being so supportive and encouraging.

The deputy head from the first school is now a headteacher at a schools direct school. I could not have completed the year if he had been pretty much all my experience of teachers. I think the trade-off is the extra time in schools - invaluable if your school is supportive, soul destroying if it isn't.

I looked round the IoE and went to a PGCE open day and was stunningly unimpressed by their attitude to the prospective students (bored, abrupt, not interested in providing sufficiently detailed answers). I am, however, considering a masters there and have had much better dealings recently, so maybe I was unlucky first time round.

They're both shit and you won't like either - so go for the one where you get paid! It's fine once you're qualified and working; it's just the training year that is miserable. Grit your teeth and keep going. Good luck - it's a great job.

'Yes there is always the 'Gove invented it therefore it must be bad' position - hardly convincing - smacks of the defensive - but certainly is stance the universities seem to be taking - because their fee income is at stake..'

Not because their fee income is at stake but because Gove, as is his habit, has ignored the evidence and advice from Ofsted and the Educatioon Select committee that university based training is of better quality than other routes, including SCITTs, which are entirely school based.

Also unsure how anyone can claim that SD trainees are better than PGCE when this is the first year of the SD route?

HedgeHogRoute - how is it that you have been able to employ a SD trainee already? Genuinely interested, by the way.

OldRoan - sorry to hear about your experience. That can be one of the pitfalls of school experience and it is true that with university based training you have the benefit of university support should things not go to plan. Not sure where that will some from in a similar SD based example?

I'm not claiming that one is better than the other - I think it depends on too many factors than have been discussed here, but I do think that the OP deserves a balanced picture, as far as is possible, if she is to make an informed decision. Not sure that is being presented so far ...

Maclover, that was why I mentioned the support of my university . I was trying to point out that what was a crappy placement could be a year that puts people off teaching. Schools direct in my second placement, however, would have knocked spots off my PGCE. It is a massive gamble.

I suppose with schools direct the associate schools should support? But I think it is easier for criticism to come from an institution rather than a colleague who has to maintains working relationship with someone.

SDhopeful - the select committee report can be found:

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmeduc/1515/151502.htm

An extract, if you're interested:

61. Ofsted, which has responsibility for inspecting teacher training, found that between September 2008 and August 2011 there was "more outstanding provision in primary and secondary partnerships led by higher education institutions than in school-centred partnerships or employment-based routes".[90] Amongst the HEI-led provision, Smithers and Robinson found that the best programmes are consistently run by "the old established universities".[91] Smithers and Robinson also note, however, that the highest-performing SCITT (the Billericay Educational Consortium, from which we took evidence) outranks the highest-performing HEI partnership, and that—when all routes are compared—the best ten providers "comprise four SCITTs, four universities and two EBITTs", proving that there is high quality provision in all the teacher training routes.[92]

62. Whilst finding that HEI-led provision is best overall, Ofsted noted in its evidence to our inquiry that "the introduction of more routes into teaching" is "one of the success stories of recent years".[93] This message was echoed by numerous other witnesses, including trainee and practising teachers with whom we met, and who had themselves pursued a variety of routes into teaching. Headteachers giving evidence in York, for example, had trained on a variety of programmes[94] but did not, in the words of one, "favour one [route] over another" when appointing teachers to their schools.[95]

63. Moreover, we found during our investigations that different routes appear to suit different candidates better, for a variety of reasons. The 2011 Good Teacher Training Guide shows that:

OldRoan, I agree that it is a gamble, which is why any advice offered to the OP (and anyone else reading this thread for the same reason) deserves to have a balanced and full picture, or at least be able to ask some questions, so that they can make informed decisions for themselves. Am slightly concerned that some posters here seem to be employed by SD marketing PLC and are negative about routes of which they appear to know little!
Hope you have a good NQT placement?