A Tale of Two Brothers

[justtaketheeffingpicture]

Such a contrast in these two today in their social postings. William looking hot, very much like his Mum and doing something positive whereas Harry the Twat is dancing in a hoody 🙄 doing what ? A court jester ? 🤡

Thanks for the education! I will print it out and stick it next to my undergraduate history degree certificate from an admittedly very bog standard university. 😀

My answer is that you can leave out all sorts of bits of the ceremony, which I believe they did this time to shorten it, because only a very few people organise these events and the majority of the public , including myself, wouldn’t know any different. Every single ceremony of this nature is crafted nowadays with tv cameras in mind. So please don’t tell me that adaptations are not possible!

All of these traditions were new once. And had been adapted from something else that went before!

Would there have been an uprising in the Manor of Worksop I wonder had Charles failed to don the Coronation Glove? 😁.

When Charles became Prince of Wales, the investiture ceremony at Caernarfon castle was entirely made up. And then conveniently dropped for Prince William because the Welsh political climate wasn’t so favourable, which proves that innovation and adaptation can happen when it suits the ruling class!

And my argument is that our king, if he is intent on serving the people, should evolve with the people. The UK imho badly needs to look forward as well as backwards. The only things that we seem to celebrate as a nation are sporting fixtures and the past.

And that is leaving to one side the cost of living crisis!

And, imho, if the King truly wanted to serve us, he didn’t need to cost the taxpayer £72 million. Especially after the spectacular pomp and ceremony of the late Queen Elizabeth’s funeral which cost the taxpayer £162 million.

I would have had more respect for him if Charles’s and his chorus had insisted that the £72 million should be divided between Scotland , Wales, Northern Ireland and England and used to build and fund four Coronation Centres of Refuge for the Homeless.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c04lyddv2p5o

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/18/queen-elizabeth-iis-funeral-cost-over-200-million-uk-government-reveals.html

Goodness me, what a prolix bore you are.

@Plasticcheeeandgherkins You’ve cherry picked again to make your point. The modern and the ancient are not in competition. The idea that the money ‘saved’ by not having a coronation would go to the people in any way is hopelessly naive.

You also haven’t said how much of that money was paid to U.K. business as part of coronation preparations. It didn’t just disappear down a black hole. It went to the many traditional, artisan businesses who hand make or restore many items.

You also forgot to mention all the charitable giving down by Charles as part of the celebrations, such as the whole day set aside for community volunteer work. Some of that £72 million would have gone into that project too. It was a huge event, bringing together people from all four nations.

And quite frankly, the idea that a one off donation of £18 million to fund a community project in all four nations is laughable. That is staggeringly little for a large scale social project, which would have then brought no revenue to the country. Really a black hole which would require constant support and extra funding. You cannot just throw a one off big sun at something like that and expect it to survive!

Thank you! 😁
I do my very best.

We’d just had a huge event bringing together the nations in the form of the Queen’s funeral costing £162 million. We didn’t need another one almost immediately afterwards.

And I know a lot about funding streams for charitable projects thanks very much. Once established, these projects could have been kept going by profits from the Duchies which I believe are around £21 million a year each. It could have been paid in lieu of corporation tax which they avoid paying!

A new modern budget conscious coronation, if we have to have a monarchy at all, would have been far more in keeping with the impoverished state of the nation. And would have marked a new era.

At the very least, it would have signalled a listening head of state, lead by Charles, taking the monarchy in a new, more modest direction. I felt the opulence of the Coronation was quite out of keeping with the time. And I wasn’t the only one. And Charles seems to live an extravagant life style as ever. Who really needs access to seventeen estates or whatever it is now?

There are always excuses as to why it’s impossible to change. Each to their own but I think the British people are beginning to see that in terms of work per taxation pounds spent, the RF are not much of a bargain! They seem to be serving themselves as much as they serve the people.

Right. It he would only be listening to you and people who agree with you. I don’t want a slimmed down coronation and there are also people who agree with me too. Who does he listen to?

Changes were made to the service to ‘modernise’ but apparently nothing short of housing all the homeless and feed all the poor is enough for you.

As for charity support. The income from the Duchies currently goes to support the private costs of the monarchy, including running and paying for those estates and the people who work on them. By taking that money you would be pushing people out of jobs and stopping the current charity work done by the Duchies. Redirecting that cash will be more costly in the end.

Sell it all for the good of the nation is such a well worn battle cry from Republicans but you can only sell and asset once and when it is gone and the proceeds are gone, you are left with nothing more to sell and no more money and you’re stuffed.

The idea that everything will be thrown open to the public and all ills will be cured by becoming a republic is not supported by the experiences of other countries who did the same thing. France lost untold amounts of money and cultural history during the revolution, which mostly disappeared into the pockets of corrupt administrators and looters.

The stupidity of this entire argument is along the same lines as the absolute noob who thought it was a great idea to sell our half of the channel tunnel for some quick cash. Imagine the government having to rent back Buckingham Palace from a private equity firm for state events. That is exactly what would happen.

*You also forgot to mention all the charitable giving down by Charles as part of the celebrations, such as the whole day set aside for community volunteer work. Some of that £72 million would have gone into that project too. It was a huge event, bringing together people from all four nations.

I didn’t forget to mention it! I deliberately didn’t mention it because the success or otherwise of that volunteering Monday was as I recall largely down to the participation and efforts of ordinary people, tax payers in other words, and their volunteered labour.

I mean this genuinely and not in a snarky way but there are people in the world, like myself, who see photos of the RF dressed up in strange costumes with fake medals and on occasion crowns or huge ostrich plumes on their heads, and think they look utterly ridiculous and bizarre.

Still ignoring my questions to you about this @Plasticcheeeandgherkins, where these motifs apply to other cultural ceremonies. I think my original assessment of racism and arrogance was probably correct.

@Plasticcheeeandgherkins It had to be coordinated and advertised. That costs money. Charities aren’t free. It costs to hold events and get volunteers out. Part of the £72 million would have been to coordinate that day, which was huge drive on increasing volunteering across the country. Many of our local charities had a huge increase in volunteer sign ups.

But again, that is not enough for you.

There are some figures that were published by the Department for Culture. Media and Sport in 2024.

Useful highlights:
Cost: £72million
Guests: 6000 fewer than QEII coronation
Hospitality sector boost alone: £350million
Coronation Big Lunch: £14.4million raised for charity

https://archive.is/0oxg9

I have seen figures from one firm of chartered accountants suggesting an overall boost to the UK economy of £8billion.

Edited to add: I think people sometimes forget that massive spectacles such as coronations are not simply about one rich family - they are huge public events organised by governments and used as global advertising.

*Imagine the government having to rent back Buckingham Palace from a private equity firm for state events. That is exactly what would happen

Well seeing as Buck Pal is quite an ugly building that is excess to requirements, that wouldn’t be a total tragedy imho.

Changes were made to the service to ‘modernise’ but apparently nothing short of housing all the homeless and feed all the poor is enough for you

People always put forward this extreme version of an argument in order to dismiss and discredit any alternative way of going about things. A balance could be struck. We could make small changes by increments.

For example, how does anyone seriously justify a head of state who benefits by £600 million on the death of the former head of state?

https://sundaytribune.co.za/personal-finance/my-money/2023-05-20-billionaire-king-how-did-king-charles-make-his-considerable-fortune/

The monarchy should at least pay the same tax and be subject to the same land laws as everyone else. That would be a small start.
What would be your objection to it?

France lost untold amounts of money and cultural history during the revolution, which mostly disappeared into the pockets of corrupt administrators and looters

Another hyperbolic statement! The French Revolution was 250 years ago, Things have moved on slightly!

Yes of course change is always challenging initially. But that doesn’t mean you never ever try. A British revolution in 2030 or whenever could be very civilised and incremental if we designed it that way.

Anyway, France is doing rather well now as a country with all things that make a country civil. Their medical services, social care, public transport, free education system work reasonably well, unlike in the UK. People strike when they feel that their work conditions are unfair. They do not kowtow like us Brits who seem to have a very accepting old-fashioned deferential attitude which I believe stems in part from being a subject not a citizen.

I’ve already answered three times. You just don’t like my responses! And that’s fine.

If you read my previous replies, you would see that I was referring specifically to the Royal Family whose monarch and consort feel it appropriate to adorn themselves in gold and velvet robes and precious jewels (we’ll leave aside the fact that many of these stones were plundered from the colonies) and don’t see any problem doing that when they represent countries where 31% of children are living in poverty.

https://cpag.org.uk/news/child-poverty-statistics-new-record-high-and-further-breakdowns

And don’t get me started on the unearned medals! And the endless titles and honours of merit that they keep awarding one another.

It’s inappropriate imho and could all be toned down massively if not abolished completely.

Why is obscene wealth in one family so supported and cherished and presented as something we should all respect?

I love that this ad runs through this thread 😂😂😂

Nope again. You have pivoted away from your own original statement down the line of the costs of ceremonies, because you refuse to answer the question about other cultures. The issue of the cost of coronations or anything else was not under discussion. Your original comment was a comparison of Harry's dancing (which you thought was fine) with the customs and costumes in the coronation ceremony, punctuated with your statement: I mean this genuinely and not in a snarky way but there are people in the world, like myself, who see photos of the RF dressed up in strange costumes with fake medals and on occasion crowns or huge ostrich plumes on their heads, and think they look utterly ridiculous and bizarre.

So it follows that people like you see other cultural figures dressed up in plumes, medals, crowns etc and find them ridiculous and bizarre.

I think people are having a bit of a go because lots of things you are suggesting come across as hopelessly naive and dismissive of other view points. And also, you have admitted to cherry picking facts to make your own ‘truth’.

Republicans need to learn that calling National asserts ‘big ugly buildings’ that no one would mine getting sold off and jeering at National ceremonies which lots of people love will not win them a referendum on the monarchy.

I’ve said it before but post Brexit no one wants another bloody referendum. And I hope we’re not stupid enough to fall for another set of pie in the sky promises again from fanatical idealists who want to ride rough shod over everyone else in the name of their chosen cause.

Responding too:
Livingbeyondyourmemes

Quite simply, you are trying to make me out as racist, for your own ends when I have been defending the twerking video.

I see you and I have answered this same point five times now and I am not going to do so again.

If you really want to know what prompted my original comment, it was the image of Charles and Camilla in full regal regalia, waving from the balcony of Buckingham Palace. I didn’t want to be so specifically offensive to some, but I honestly thought that they looked ridiculous and that if Camilla could wear the crown then any one of us deserved to do so!

I don’t mind being accused of being naieve but I do object to this being used as an excuse to not slim down or never change anything, ever!

As a Republican, I don’t know why I am calling for change actually, as the institution of the monarchy is far more likely to collapse if it doesn’t make some financial changes and become far more transparent. I don’t think that qualifies as riding rough shod over people’s wishes. It’s quite a reasonable request and one that a recent poll on Mumsnet showed that most people favoured.

A lot depends on how you ask the question!

I don’t know where I admitted to cherry picking?

Last, it’s a little unfair to characterise my posts as dismissive when the majority of posters on the RF boards are overwhelmingly pro-Monarchy and if you dare to post one or two opposing arguments as I have on this thread, you find yourself defending a barrage of dismissive retorts for hours as my posts are quoted and picked apart so often.

(And that’s leaving aside the rude replies
😀👍)

It may look like I am dismissive of others pov when I am busy responding to so many replies all at once is my point.

Actually there have been quite a few points that royalists have made in this thread that I think are fair as it happens, I just haven’t always had time to stop and write that.

No, you have repeatedly failed to answer my question (and that posed by others too): whether other cultural leaders in their "alien finery" (as you put it) are also "ridiculous and bizarre".

Except that, as @Livingbeyondyourmemes points out, you haven't answered it.

Ridiculing those who wear ceremonial dress comes across as small-minded, at the very least. Sweeping statements such as the one you made can easily be seen as racist.

If you would ridicule one group of people for wearing ceremonial dress and plumes, why not others? And if ridiculing those others would be unacceptable to you, why?

Except I did not ridicule all people who wear ceremonial dress.

I am being deliberately misrepresented which is extremely tedious.

My specific words were;

I mean this genuinely and not in a snarky way but there are people in the world, like myself, who see photos of the RF dressed up in strange costumes with fake medals and on occasion crowns or huge ostrich plumes on their heads, and think they look utterly ridiculous and bizarre.

My point was about the RF specifically and no one else. I don’t know how much clearer I can be.

And I also said;

The point I was making was that many people in the world find the costumes that the RF dress up in, just as alien to them, as a woman twerking in a maternity suite seems alien to many posters on this board. BTW, it’s not that outlandish in reality if you have ever watched a dance video by Beyonce.

In other words, the twerking video would make much more sense to a young black American kid who is a fan of Cameron Jay’s music than a costume of velvet ostrich feathers. But it requires changing perspectives.

I don’t claim to be an expert on this style of music but Cameron Jay is I believe is the artist behind the Starrkeisha song that MS was dancing to. And Starrkeisha is a parody! So the lyrics weren’t meant to be taken seriously in the first place,

If it is ridiculous and bizarre in one group, then why is it not ridiculous and bizarre in another group? Because you are regarding these 2 groups of humans differently.

No! I never found the twerking video strange or offensive. It was monarchists who largely framed it that way when it was simply a fun dance probably filmed to relieve tension at a stressful time.

And I am saying that to me, and some other people in the world, the way the RF dress looks anachronistic and bizarre. We don’t all look at things from the same perspective of the average monarchist on Mumsnet. Sorry if you can’t understand that but I don’t know how many more ways I can say it.

Deflection again. Talking about ceremonial dress and custom between different cultures with royalty - plumes and crowns - not twerking.

@Plasticcheeeandgherkins how about this guy ? Does he look ridiculous?

Please give it a rest. It’s very boring for everyone else to have to read a silly back and forth. I am not going to engage in it further.

If you want to accuse me of something then state it openly and I can report you to Mumsnet HQ. Please don’t keep baiting me in a deliberately obscure way.

I have explained myself pretty clearly and openly many times. I only think the RF look ridiculous. No one else.