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The royal family

Meghan Markle vs Le Père Goriot

48 replies

hepsitemiz · 02/06/2025 11:22

If you studied French, or comparative literature, you might be familiar with Le Père Goriot, one of Balzac's more digestible tomes about a naive but doting father who sacrifices money, health and dignity for his two daughters.

Anastasie and Delphine Goriot use their father - and arguably others - to climb the social ladder... and discard him when he is of no further use. He dies after a long illness, lonely and destitute.

Neither of the sisters, iirc, turn up to his funeral - he is too beneath them by now for them to want the connection to be known. One of them deigns to send one of her fancier horses to add a touch of class to the funeral parade. I may be misremembering this bit...

All in all, there are quite a few parallels between the Goriot sisters and MM, though a couple of divergences too, for example at no point does Monsieur Goriot try to use his connection to his daughters to raise his own profile, as some say Thomas Markle did with Meghan.

There must be other literary references out there - there so many books I have not read, of course, while the themes of betrayal, filial neglect and the corrupting effect of money have always been powerful ones to explore. I thought this might make an interesting discussion to see whether there are any others with similar thoughts.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 02/06/2025 15:27

I kindly suggest you go back to your books and your ponderings, or find a hobby that gets you out in the fresh air more.

CoffeeCantata · 02/06/2025 17:28

I've only read Le Pere Goriot in translation but it's a superb read.

I can't relate these to the RF, but 2 stories of filial neglect and cruelty come to mind. Wordsworth's poem Michael is a heart-rending tale of a poor shepherd and his hopes for his son, who leaves his lakeland home to go to London to make his fortune. He falls into bad company and never returns to finish the sheepfold they had started to build together, and which he made a promise to return to.

Thomas Hardy's short story The Son's Veto is a tale of son's shame about his mother's origins. It's a masterful portrait of cruelty and class snobbery.

Both great reads, if not the most cheerful! But then I like a miserable tale!

hepsitemiz · 02/06/2025 21:03

Two interesting reads, Coffee. Something terribly poignant about these stories when you’re a parent to adult children. I’ve been very lucky with mine so far, don’t know how I’d cope if they turned their backs on me!

OP posts:
MaturingCheeseball · 03/06/2025 08:46

Vanity Fair always springs to mind… or The Prince - the means justifies the end and all that.

Quirkswork · 03/06/2025 08:59

MaturingCheeseball · 03/06/2025 08:46

Vanity Fair always springs to mind… or The Prince - the means justifies the end and all that.

Great Expectations where Pip is ashamed of his humble beginnings once he rises up through society. His snobbery and how he is embarrassed of Joe and Biddy who looked after him and loved him.

plumbago · 03/06/2025 09:50

And of course there is King Lear - 'How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child!'

derxa · 03/06/2025 09:58

OP I’d completely forgotten about Pere Goriot. I read it at university. Yes I think there are some parallels with current events

MaturingCheeseball · 03/06/2025 10:36

Mildred Pierce… (although how I shuddered when upon mentioning this previously a Fan objected to the comparison with a Netflix drama …)

CoffeeCantata · 03/06/2025 12:19

MaturingCheeseball · 03/06/2025 10:36

Mildred Pierce… (although how I shuddered when upon mentioning this previously a Fan objected to the comparison with a Netflix drama …)

Oh I LOVE the original Mildred Pierce.

I feel I should mention dear Meghan...so I'll say: if she was indeed embarrassed about her father, she was very silly. The RF would not have let him make a fool of himself on the day, even if he'd been inclined to. He'd have had loads of advice and guidance...if he'd been humble enough to accept it, I'm sure.

But he's just an overweight dad - I really don't know what her problem was. KC, although I'm a fan, isn't an Adonis either, bless him.

Anyway - back to literature! I find stories of inter-generational snobbery fascinating. But It's not always fair to put all the blame on the young snobs - such as Pip in Great Expectations. The Victorian class system was brutal and it must have been very difficult to move out of your class and take all your relations and your background with you. No excuse nowadays, though! Poor old Carole Middleton got stick just for not being aristocratic, didn't she?

MrsSkylerWhite · 03/06/2025 12:21

mathanxiety · 02/06/2025 15:27

I kindly suggest you go back to your books and your ponderings, or find a hobby that gets you out in the fresh air more.

Yep, this ^.

User14March · 03/06/2025 12:33

I love the clever literary people on here, Betjeman inspired H & M poems being a high point.

Becky Sharp comes to mind & even Beauty & the Beast, the ‘good’ daughter & ‘bad’ re: gifts etc.

Re: father I think sadly it’s not so much she was embarrassed, he’d scrub up fine & be graciously received as others have said, but he’s gullible & she thinks mentally unstable (NB: Spare & nailing plywood across windows for no reason pre: Harry). If welcomed to fold & ‘tin foil hat’ for highest bidder he’s a liability as might blab about past.

HonoriaBulstrode · 03/06/2025 12:58

But It's not always fair to put all the blame on the young snobs - such as Pip in Great Expectations.

Pip was very young when he heard of his 'Great Expectations' - it was a lot for a young boy to cope with. And how many times do we read on here that it's perfectly normal for teenagers to be embarrassed by their relations?

he’s gullible & she thinks mentally unstable (NB: Spare & nailing plywood across windows for no reason pre: Harry). If welcomed to fold & ‘tin foil hat’ for highest bidder he’s a liability as might blab about past.

I don't know that I'd believe anything I read in Spare unless it was independently verified.

And Thomas hasn't blabbed, has he? He's (supposedly) hard up and could probably make quite a lot of money talking about M, but he hasn't.

MaturingCheeseball · 03/06/2025 13:06

Why do we have to go back to our books and our ponderings? Who says?

I believe that it was less TM’s appearance that was bothersome, than his memory - ie it might be too good, eg “Well, Your Majesty, this is certainly a classier set-up than Megsy’s last wedding - can you believe I had to pay for all the weed for the guests and I downright refused to do beach wheelbarrow races…”

boxset · 03/06/2025 13:08

mathanxiety · 02/06/2025 15:27

I kindly suggest you go back to your books and your ponderings, or find a hobby that gets you out in the fresh air more.

Says the woman on Mumsnet hahahah.

boxset · 03/06/2025 13:09

MaturingCheeseball · 03/06/2025 13:06

Why do we have to go back to our books and our ponderings? Who says?

I believe that it was less TM’s appearance that was bothersome, than his memory - ie it might be too good, eg “Well, Your Majesty, this is certainly a classier set-up than Megsy’s last wedding - can you believe I had to pay for all the weed for the guests and I downright refused to do beach wheelbarrow races…”

She’s American.

boxset · 03/06/2025 13:14

I think it’s an interesting subject and she’s by no means unique in the sense that coming from circumstances where she had divorced parents and probably spent her life comparing herself to the other private school children, has made her overly ambitious and always looking for potential in any situation. She was clearly deeply ashamed of her paternal side, and to her detriment really. Had she shut up and stopped the whole press debacle by maintaining a dignified silence it would have blown over in 10 minutes. Unfortunately there are many people who have to be right rather than happy.

User14March · 03/06/2025 13:16

HonoriaBulstrode · 03/06/2025 12:58

But It's not always fair to put all the blame on the young snobs - such as Pip in Great Expectations.

Pip was very young when he heard of his 'Great Expectations' - it was a lot for a young boy to cope with. And how many times do we read on here that it's perfectly normal for teenagers to be embarrassed by their relations?

he’s gullible & she thinks mentally unstable (NB: Spare & nailing plywood across windows for no reason pre: Harry). If welcomed to fold & ‘tin foil hat’ for highest bidder he’s a liability as might blab about past.

I don't know that I'd believe anything I read in Spare unless it was independently verified.

And Thomas hasn't blabbed, has he? He's (supposedly) hard up and could probably make quite a lot of money talking about M, but he hasn't.

True. On TM & I am very sympathetic but he has given very, IMO, ill advised interviews & made some very foolish choices indeed. You’d not see Michael Middleton on morning shows talking to the likes of Piers Morgan. Meg says he’s vulnerable & fragile whilst def not his fault what she’s said supports that & there’s a raft of evidence. If in the fold she loses control of his/her childhood narrative. He won’t be told what to do. He loves her & he’s not done a ‘tell all’ you’re right.

*Isn’t the brother supposed to be doing a ‘tell all’ book?

User14March · 03/06/2025 13:22

boxset · 03/06/2025 13:14

I think it’s an interesting subject and she’s by no means unique in the sense that coming from circumstances where she had divorced parents and probably spent her life comparing herself to the other private school children, has made her overly ambitious and always looking for potential in any situation. She was clearly deeply ashamed of her paternal side, and to her detriment really. Had she shut up and stopped the whole press debacle by maintaining a dignified silence it would have blown over in 10 minutes. Unfortunately there are many people who have to be right rather than happy.

The ‘ potential in any situation’ brought to mind Geri Halliwell who apparently could separate the monkey from any organ grinder in any room & isolate the rainmakers & the key decision makers who could empower.

Victoria B has also arguably made very good use of her hand of cards.

The Brits don’t like a working class woman who forgets her place or gets too big for boots.

User14March · 03/06/2025 13:29

MaturingCheeseball · 03/06/2025 13:06

Why do we have to go back to our books and our ponderings? Who says?

I believe that it was less TM’s appearance that was bothersome, than his memory - ie it might be too good, eg “Well, Your Majesty, this is certainly a classier set-up than Megsy’s last wedding - can you believe I had to pay for all the weed for the guests and I downright refused to do beach wheelbarrow races…”

Yes, exactly this…& that’s tip of iceberg ‘I told her that Trev could only take her so far..’..TM speaks as finds I think & won’t stick to the or any script. If alcohol then involved (?) I do think he’s a good hearted guy though, I love he filmed the first wedding & he’s busting with fatherly pride in photo I saw. Very sad.

User14March · 03/06/2025 13:31

derxa · 03/06/2025 09:58

OP I’d completely forgotten about Pere Goriot. I read it at university. Yes I think there are some parallels with current events

Now motivated to read, sounds interesting.

User14March · 03/06/2025 13:35

boxset · 03/06/2025 13:14

I think it’s an interesting subject and she’s by no means unique in the sense that coming from circumstances where she had divorced parents and probably spent her life comparing herself to the other private school children, has made her overly ambitious and always looking for potential in any situation. She was clearly deeply ashamed of her paternal side, and to her detriment really. Had she shut up and stopped the whole press debacle by maintaining a dignified silence it would have blown over in 10 minutes. Unfortunately there are many people who have to be right rather than happy.

Most would be very proud of a lighting director, diplomat & clerical paternal uncle.

In pockets of CA where £ & status all you’d need to have a very strong sense of self. They can & will harshly judge on super shallow criteria.

Stick fingers up & live happily.

Quirkswork · 03/06/2025 14:55

HonoriaBulstrode · 03/06/2025 12:58

But It's not always fair to put all the blame on the young snobs - such as Pip in Great Expectations.

Pip was very young when he heard of his 'Great Expectations' - it was a lot for a young boy to cope with. And how many times do we read on here that it's perfectly normal for teenagers to be embarrassed by their relations?

he’s gullible & she thinks mentally unstable (NB: Spare & nailing plywood across windows for no reason pre: Harry). If welcomed to fold & ‘tin foil hat’ for highest bidder he’s a liability as might blab about past.

I don't know that I'd believe anything I read in Spare unless it was independently verified.

And Thomas hasn't blabbed, has he? He's (supposedly) hard up and could probably make quite a lot of money talking about M, but he hasn't.

Yes, Pip eventually had enough self-awareness to realise what a snobbish twat he had been. It will be interesting to see if life mirrors fiction in the case of Meghan Markle particularly as she's knocking on a bit now.

BemusedAmerican · 03/06/2025 15:17

MaturingCheeseball · 03/06/2025 10:36

Mildred Pierce… (although how I shuddered when upon mentioning this previously a Fan objected to the comparison with a Netflix drama …)

You have to watch the legendary Carol Burnett Parody called "Mildred Fierce":

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/fLfSiKI3DsM?feature=shared

MaturingCheeseball · 03/06/2025 15:30

@BemusedAmerican - just watched your sketch ! I have seen Mildred Pierce about 250 times - and every time I’m steaming at Vida. “Your people” - such sneering! I had a row a while ago with dd which ended up with her shouting, “You are not Mildred Pierce!” 🤣

CurlewKate · 03/06/2025 15:38

What is it people say? “I’m just not interested in H&M-I wish they’d just go away and never come back. But they keep popping up everywhere. I mean, I was just trying to have a conversation about Balzac, and there they bloody were. They should stay in their lane!”