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The royal family

What did Simon Case say to Angela Rayner?

114 replies

JoyousGreyOrca · 15/02/2025 18:52

The Times published the following anecdote from a new book about the Royal Family. You need to read it first, but I wonder what Simon Case said to Angela Rayner?

"All but one aspect of the royal succession had been settled immediately: who would now deputise for the King, giving assent to legislation and representing him officially at state functions, if he were abroad or incapacitated? The Regency Acts of 1937 and 1953 decreed that the sovereign’s spouse and the next four adult royals in line to the throne would serve as counsellors of state: Camilla, now Queen, Prince William, Prince Harry, Prince Andrew and Princess Beatrice.
The press made much of the inclusion of Harry, brooding in Californian exile. But Rayner, who was the opposition’s Commons spokeswoman on questions relating to the constitution, was more exercised by Andrew. His desire to play an active role in public life was undimmed by allegations — which he has always denied — that he sexually abused a 17-year-old, his payment of a £12 million settlement to his accuser or the ongoing taint of his long association with Jeffrey Epstein, one of the world’s most notorious paedophiles.

Rayner thought that an outrage. “She was very actively reaching out to the Palace, the upper echelons of the civil service,” an adviser recalled, “and said she thought this was a huge problem, and that the government needed to address this, and that she would offer cross-party support to make sure it happened. That’s — to be stereotypical — her working-class view. She’s not anti-monarchist, but she doesn’t like a paedo.”

In those discussions, she offered the empathy of a mother who knew what it meant to raise a complicated family. Her message, according to her adviser, was: “I know how difficult it is to be in a big, dysfunctional family where you’ve got the black sheep, they’re really damaging to the rest of you but they’re still in your family.” She nonetheless advocated excluding Andrew from royal duties entirely.

That nuclear option proved too much for the Palace and Downing Street to take. Together with the cabinet secretary, the King’s private secretary Clive Alderton alighted on a diplomatic fix: the list would be expanded to include Princess Anne and Prince Edward, so that neither Harry nor Andrew would ever be required to act on the King’s behalf.

Doing so still required new legislation, setting in train an intricate waltz between royalty, government and parliament. Rayner would be required to deliver a statement on the new settlement on behalf of the opposition. Extending the list to add new counsellors of state, however strongly she agreed with the intended effect, would require her implicit endorsement of the existing cohort. That proved too much. With negotiations ongoing she walked indignantly into her office and told her team: “I’m not going to vote to keep that nonce on … I can’t go back to my constituency and say, yeah, I support that.”

After the deep state learnt of her disquiet, Rayner was summoned for a Zoom meeting with Simon Case, the cabinet secretary and former courtier to Prince William. She made her point with no less force but emerged from the meeting chastened. “After that conversation, she went quiet,” an adviser said. “She never, ever spoke about the royals like that again.”"

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TulipTiptoer · 16/02/2025 10:13

That's a great point. Did he have 24/7 RPOs with him at this point?

Yes he did. He was advised very strongly not to stay at Epstein's mansion ever but instead to avail himself of the Consulate. He naturally, being Andrew, refused. He always said he was only answerable to the Queen and would do what he wants... all whilst telling anyone beneath him to fuck off.

I can't stand Simon Case. He sent a string of awful whatsapps joyfully laughing at those back on planes having to spend weeks in one room in quarantine. It was hilarious according to him. Horrible man. He's been in and out of the Civil Service and Royal Family like nothing else.

As for Angela Rayner's comment, I think it was misguided but I get where she's coming from. I think Andrew digs himself big holes all by himself and we should let him do that. However, the protection from all members of the royal family makes me sick. They all obviously think he hasn't done much wrong and will do anything to protect him. They all might not like him but they look after him. We know they all band together in times of crisis, even when its dodgy stuff

WatchOutMissMarpleIsAbout · 16/02/2025 10:14

elessar · 16/02/2025 08:38

That's a great point. Did he have 24/7 RPOs with him at this point?

If so, they must have been privy to an awful lot. Although I assume they'd be stationed outside when any of the real action took place.

Just walked the dog and was musing on this. Maybe they told him and he told them to F off. I doubt it would be out of character to do so tbh. Andrew doesn’t seem to be a particularly pleasant individual to put it mildly.

Edit: ahh thank you @TulipTiptoer

TulipTiptoer · 16/02/2025 10:23

WatchOutMissMarpleIsAbout · 16/02/2025 10:14

Just walked the dog and was musing on this. Maybe they told him and he told them to F off. I doubt it would be out of character to do so tbh. Andrew doesn’t seem to be a particularly pleasant individual to put it mildly.

Edit: ahh thank you @TulipTiptoer

Edited

He did! I read somewhere he does not take advice.

Well..... he's had somewhat of a comeuppance for that behaviour now hasn't he?
Just horseriding round his vast estate, no more velvet curtains and feathers on hats, uniforms and medals and poncing about in costumes from the dresssing up box. He loves all that.
However, it hasn't gone far enough in my book. He's still protected, he is still making lots of money off the institution and he won't give up a vast royal estate

WatchOutMissMarpleIsAbout · 16/02/2025 10:29

And quite frankly that comeuppance couldn’t happen to a nicer individual!

IdaGlossop · 16/02/2025 10:54

Downbythequay48789 · 16/02/2025 04:00

Surely the overall principle is more important than semantics? Andrew is either a working member of the Royal family or he is not!

I’m outraged that A R was silenced! She was doing her job and going it well. The public do not want someone of ill repute representing the UK.

I’m also slightly surprised that Camilla is included in the list as well as Andrew!

Of course it is. We are all mugs for tolerating the Royal family - their eye-watering wealth, shady machinations to garner yet more wealth, exemption from paying taxes, theirs and courtiers' inability to deal with Andrew, Harry and Meghan, the low output of the Prince and Princess of Wales.

elessar · 16/02/2025 12:50

Thanks @TulipTiptoer - interesting! I do believe that they (his advisors and RPOs) would have tried to advise him to steer clear of Epstein and Andrew would have simply ignored him - ultimately they didn't have the power to stop him consorting with whoever he wanted, only to protect his physical safety, and try to minimise any reputational damages as a result.

But it does beg the question, if the Queen was the only one with any influence over him, then was she made aware of what he was up to, and if so, did she try to curb his behaviour? As much as Andrew is fully responsible for his own actions, I also think the broader RF have to take some accountability, if only for creating an environment where he felt entitled to completely ignore guidance and frankly behave like a total sleaze, without thinking he would ever face any consequences.

The same is true for all the powerful men associated with Epstein of course. It's truly scary what people will do when they believe they're above the law.

Tomatotater · 16/02/2025 12:56

elessar · 16/02/2025 12:50

Thanks @TulipTiptoer - interesting! I do believe that they (his advisors and RPOs) would have tried to advise him to steer clear of Epstein and Andrew would have simply ignored him - ultimately they didn't have the power to stop him consorting with whoever he wanted, only to protect his physical safety, and try to minimise any reputational damages as a result.

But it does beg the question, if the Queen was the only one with any influence over him, then was she made aware of what he was up to, and if so, did she try to curb his behaviour? As much as Andrew is fully responsible for his own actions, I also think the broader RF have to take some accountability, if only for creating an environment where he felt entitled to completely ignore guidance and frankly behave like a total sleaze, without thinking he would ever face any consequences.

The same is true for all the powerful men associated with Epstein of course. It's truly scary what people will do when they believe they're above the law.

According to reports by courtiers, Andrew would do something dreadful, there would be complaints made to the Queen and she would unquestioningly take his side. She had a massive blind spot when it came to Andrew. She could have pulled him up on his behaviour but chose to allow him to treat her staff appallingly and ignore advice.

TulipTiptoer · 16/02/2025 13:04

I agree. There are reports out there that QE2 expressed 'concern' about Andrew's role as Trade Envoy and his friendship with Epstein years and years before it blew up. That really wasn't enough though was it, he would've schmoozed his Mother to get his own way like he tried to do with everyone else. She did him a huge disservice because if she had been different with him and pulled him up on his dodgy dealings maybe he would not be in the position he is now.

I don't think there's ever been a time when Andrew has been a popular member of the royal family, that really says something. All the others wax and wane as far as being liked, but not him.

Maybe for a short time when he returned from the Falklands but that's it.

JoyousGreyOrca · 16/02/2025 14:02

@TulipTiptoer If you have links to those reports I would be grateful. I do not remember seeing those before everyone knew about Andrew.

Andrew was popular actually in the past, far more popular than Charles. He was portrayed in the media as a war hero, and I hear from services people at the time that he was well thought of. He was also portrayed as a very eligible playboy, particularly after his divorce from Sarah Ferguson. He was photographed with various beautiful women.

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JoyousGreyOrca · 16/02/2025 14:19

Tomatotater · 16/02/2025 07:39

This part, imo wasn't the worst thing. There was an event at the Palace that Leaders and Deputy leaders of the government and opposition were invited to. She was excluded, no reasons given. It doesn’t show them in a good light if they are telling Rayner to behave professionally but if any of them are challenged by anyone in government, even if the issue is dealt with you, are blacklisted forevermore out of petty revenge. Andrew is still very much supported by them in private. All of them. Case has gone back to work for the RF hasn't he?

Edited

I did not know that! How unprofessional for the Palace to behave in that manner. I agree this looks like a petty revenge.

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TulipTiptoer · 16/02/2025 14:26

JoyousGreyOrca · 16/02/2025 14:02

@TulipTiptoer If you have links to those reports I would be grateful. I do not remember seeing those before everyone knew about Andrew.

Andrew was popular actually in the past, far more popular than Charles. He was portrayed in the media as a war hero, and I hear from services people at the time that he was well thought of. He was also portrayed as a very eligible playboy, particularly after his divorce from Sarah Ferguson. He was photographed with various beautiful women.

Isn't that strange, I have heard totally different. Andrew was hugely disliked within the Armed Forces and there was great relief when he was stripped of all his titles. Maybe it depends on what sources I read!

As far as the QE2 and her concern, there was a headline about it, I have searched and can't find it, but I will continue. I know I read it at the time.

JoyousGreyOrca · 16/02/2025 14:36

Maybe your assessment is more accurate? The two people I have heard it from who are ex services hate Harry and Meghan and like to say how hated Harry was by the services. I must admit I was surprised at being assured the services valued Andrew, as he always seemed supremely arrogant to me.

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TulipTiptoer · 16/02/2025 14:44

@JoyousGreyOrca

I did find this from 2011.... The Queen is reported to have held private talks with prince andrew about the mounting scandal over his links to Jeffrey Epstein, the billionaire convicted sex offender, and his trade dealings with despotic regimes on behalf of the government. It was reported today that the Queen and the Duke of York discussed the continuing negative impact of the headlines he is generating. Today's revelations include his decision on Monday to lobby MPs and peers to support great links with Azerbaijan, an autocracy accused of torturing protesters. It also emerged that Epstein used an RAF base to land his jet en route to a party at Sandringham, Norfolk.

It seems like his Mother was very good at having 'private talks' and 'discussing' with her son but not so good at taking action.
I find the use of an RAF base for Epstein really quite shocking. Along with Andrew 'lobbying' MPs. I thought the royal family were supposed to be apolitical

I am becoming more understanding of Angela Rayner's distaste for Andrew!

Sunholidays · 16/02/2025 14:47

JoyousGreyOrca · 16/02/2025 14:19

I did not know that! How unprofessional for the Palace to behave in that manner. I agree this looks like a petty revenge.

If this is true then things have changed a little as Rayner and the King are now pals, doing walkabouts together

JoyousGreyOrca · 16/02/2025 14:53

Doing walkabouts does not make them pals.

And the reality is that Keir Starmer, Angela Raynor and others accompanied Charles on a tour of the Cornish sustainable housing development Charles is involved with.

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TulipTiptoer · 16/02/2025 15:03

JoyousGreyOrca · 16/02/2025 14:53

Doing walkabouts does not make them pals.

And the reality is that Keir Starmer, Angela Raynor and others accompanied Charles on a tour of the Cornish sustainable housing development Charles is involved with.

Edited

I agree. I really don't think the Deputy PM can do otherwise.

JoyousGreyOrca · 16/02/2025 15:13

TulipTiptoer · 16/02/2025 15:03

I agree. I really don't think the Deputy PM can do otherwise.

And neither can Charles.
The Royal family can snub Angela Raynor out of the public eye, but even they would not do it publicly. It would lead to a backlash against their so called political neutrality.

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Sunholidays · 16/02/2025 15:15

.

What did Simon Case say to Angela Rayner?
JoyousGreyOrca · 16/02/2025 15:19

@Sunholidays What are you trying to say?

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Theunamedcat · 16/02/2025 15:21

JoyousGreyOrca · 15/02/2025 22:31

You do know other allegations have come out since?

"Prince Andrew was accused of participating in an “underage orgy” on sex offender Jeffrey Epstein’s private island, according to a newly-unsealed court document.
A 2014 court filing — included in the nearly 1,000 pages of documents that Manhattan federal Judge Loretta Preska ordered released last month — alleges an underage girl, only identified as “Jane Doe 3,” was “forced to have sexual relations with this Prince when she was a minor in three separate geographical locations.”
Those included Ghislaine Maxwell’s London apartment, an unspecified location in New York, and “on Epstein’s private island in the US Virgin Islands (in an orgy with numerous other underaged girls).”
The filing also claims Epstein told the “sex slave” to “give the Prince whatever he demanded,” and alleges that Maxwell “facilitated Prince Andrew’s acts of sexual abuse by acting as a ‘madame’ for Epstein” and helping traffic the victim internationally."

https://nypost.com/2024/01/04/news/prince-andrew-accused-of-having-underage-orgy-on-jeffrey-epsteins-private-island/

Allegations are not convictions

I was threatened in my personal life for being vocal on the opinion that after three arrests for the same/similar offence that someone must be guilty the police and social services chastised me harshly for it (although social services stated they believe him guilty I cannot) I cannot mention it infront of my children I cannot engage in protective work with my children (I made sure the school did) I cannot agree that I believe he is guilty publicly unless/until he is convicted of said offence

Sunholidays · 16/02/2025 15:23

I'm trying to say that Angela Rayner and the King have a very good relationship. They get on well.

JoyousGreyOrca · 16/02/2025 15:25

@Sunholidays Being seen being pleasant to each other in public during an official visit simply means they can both behave professionally. It tells you nothing else.

Everything I have ever read suggests the Royals are dreadful snobs. They probably laugh at Angela Raynor in private.

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LondonPapa · 16/02/2025 15:31

Rayner strikes me as someone who doesn’t understand how the world works sometimes. At least before coming to power she had misguided opinions she unwisely shared publicly. I suspect she was given a right bollocking over everything she said and was reminded where the real power lies.

IAmATorturedPoet · 16/02/2025 15:33

Everything I have ever read suggests the Royals are dreadful snobs. They probably laugh at Angela Raynor in private.

What an unpleasant thing to say.

I actually think Angela Raynor and King Charles genuinely get on well.
I don’t think she is anti monarchy either, she is just like the majority of us and has a problem with Andrew.

JoyousGreyOrca · 16/02/2025 15:37

I agree that Angela Raynor is not anti Monarchy. But if Thatcher got treated badly by the Royals as they were snobby to her, Angela Raynor will get much worse.
And Margaret Thatchers Private Secretary confirmed how the Royals treated her in The Crown was pretty accurate. Obviously not all the exact details, but the general impression was accurate.

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