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The royal family

Radio 4 debate - Do we need a monarchy?

88 replies

Aintshesweet · 25/04/2023 20:49

Glad this is being debated

OP posts:
ShandaLear · 27/04/2023 15:30

They’re basically Kardashians in golden hats. Of course we don’t need them but they’re a circus for the masses. Gossip column fodder. Ah well, they keep the spotlight off Amanda Holden, I suppose.

IronCurtain · 27/04/2023 15:47

Novella4 · 27/04/2023 15:28

And in what way is an unelected hereditary head of state democratic?

I assume you don't include the monarchy in your 'democratic institution' grouping ?

sigh

@Novella4 just a personal plea to say I’m interested in the debate not in confrontational language for the sake of score settling.

I very clearly in my post listed the monarchy as a ‘prime example of an institution that is not intuitively democratic’. It has, however, been one of the core institutions of the British state and contributed to its form of democracy.

Of course the Parliament is an established institution - also not intuitively democratic if you think about its unelected upper chamber and lack of separation between the executive and the legislative. But one of the most successful institutions of its kind in the world…

What I’m saying is that disruption to these institutions can be dangerous. So let’s say we move to an elected head of state role. Their remit will have to be codified by new acts of Parliament so that will be a political debate largely driven by the interests of whoever holds the majority at the time.

Then elected, how? Directly, through FPTP? Indirectly by Parliament? Again, in UKs largely two-party system I think it’ll end up a much more partisan institution than in most European cases, which tend to be PR.

And then, practically, I’m not sure we stand to gain much through a change that I imagine would be fraught, very highly debated and hugely distracting.

None of these challenges are insurmountable; all I’m saying is that they come with risk. Of course, if there’s enough political incentive to push through (see Brexit) it absolutely can happen. 🤷‍♀️

Coxspurplepippin · 27/04/2023 16:08

IronCurtain, I've tried asking republicans similar before. Changing from a constitutional monarchy to a republic wouldn't be a walk in the park. But all we get are references to con-a-nation (a Trumpish epithet if ever I heard one), silly hats, royal family bad etc etc. If Republicans want to win people to their cause, they need to at least have a veneer of civility Grin

Novella4 · 27/04/2023 16:17

@IronCurtain

The heritary monarchy being our head of state is not 'intuitively democratic' - it is an affront to democracy

Expecting one poster to set out the minutiae of reform is unfair and a standard way to attempt to shut down debate

I'm not suggesting you are doing that by the way .

Reform has started . It will continue with the Church of England being de coupled from the state - it is a minority interest in any case

The House of Lords reform is underway and will accelerate once the Tories are out

There will be no 'revolution'
The Windsors will be pushed further and further away from our democracy.
They need to be subject to the law like anyone else - that is a daily issue that is not going away .
Paying their taxes may result in the Windsors showing less and less interest in their role
They will fizzle out most probably

The young don't want them . And no that won't change - it's often said ( usually by the 65+) that those young people will change their mind
They won't - the works is different now and young people don't have the stake in society that they once had

Roussette · 27/04/2023 16:25

Coxspurplepippin · 27/04/2023 16:08

IronCurtain, I've tried asking republicans similar before. Changing from a constitutional monarchy to a republic wouldn't be a walk in the park. But all we get are references to con-a-nation (a Trumpish epithet if ever I heard one), silly hats, royal family bad etc etc. If Republicans want to win people to their cause, they need to at least have a veneer of civility Grin

That's not true that everyone says that. I've posted ideas, but it is just ideas

Roussette · 27/04/2023 16:27

BasiliskStare · 27/04/2023 15:18

@IronCurtain That is such an interesting post - Thank you 💐

I agree, great post Iron

BMW6 · 27/04/2023 16:46

Yes, very interesting indeed Ironcurtain - thank you

Coxspurplepippin · 27/04/2023 16:58

Roussette · 27/04/2023 16:25

That's not true that everyone says that. I've posted ideas, but it is just ideas

I've posted scenarios too, quite a few different ones, but they rarely elicit a response from Republicans.

In my head, I'm not averse to the monarchy being abolished, if a sensible alternative is offered, but we've had some big changes over the last few years, none of which have gone as planned, have ended up causing huge divisions in the country, and I think this would be just one more incredibly divisive, probably ill thought out (if Brexit and Scottish Independence are anything to go by) massive pain in the proverbial coming hot on the heels of the Leave/Remain, Yes/No debacles.

I'm very much in the camp of wanting to know exactly what was on offer as an alternative to the status quo.

BasiliskStare · 27/04/2023 17:20

I do think the Windsors could pay proper inheritance tax ( & I mean on their private wealth ) I know for historical reasons they have not - but I think KC could offer this . Being heir to the throne should not be a tax dodge.

That said I do agree with @Ironcurtain. But It would just be a welcome step , in my opinion.

Roussette · 27/04/2023 18:23

I'm very much in the camp of wanting to know exactly what was on offer as an alternative to the status quo.

Wouldn't we all? But you can't expect a random on the internet to have all the answers when it would probably take constitutional lawyers years to unpick and offer alternatives

Roussette · 27/04/2023 18:30

BasiliskStare · 27/04/2023 17:20

I do think the Windsors could pay proper inheritance tax ( & I mean on their private wealth ) I know for historical reasons they have not - but I think KC could offer this . Being heir to the throne should not be a tax dodge.

That said I do agree with @Ironcurtain. But It would just be a welcome step , in my opinion.

So agree. And I've said before on these threads, each monarch should pay for their own Coronation if it's something they want. To include security costs.

Charles is a multi millionaire (if not more) and his wealth has increased hugely since the Queen died. William will be even richer. Why can't they pay for it? It's a one off after all and Charles is already King so it just like a party we're paying for..for him
Unnecessary, hugely expensive, pay for it yourself Charles. It's pathetic this is forced on us AND we have to bear the cost when the country can ill afford it.

Yes to IHT too. Why the hell the public are clobbered for this and they're not is as joke

polkadotdalmation · 27/04/2023 18:45

@IronCurtain Excellent summary of how the stability of this country has endured and flourished. Not due to the monarchy of course, but a very strong and robust parliamentary system. The monarchy is just a minor corner of that stability, but it does something parliament can't. It gives a sense of continuity and a connection with the history of the country. That history looked at in detail is very fractured and in turmoil, but overall has been incredibly stable and lasting. a thousand years of history and a family who have given service to the country (while also enjoying enormous wealth and privilege of course) has had a steadying influence through wars and pandemics and huge political upheaval around the world.

My feeling is if it aint broke. don't fix it. A tiny but vociferous republican movement in this country are shouting in the dark at the moment.

Coxspurplepippin · 27/04/2023 19:03

Roussette · 27/04/2023 18:23

I'm very much in the camp of wanting to know exactly what was on offer as an alternative to the status quo.

Wouldn't we all? But you can't expect a random on the internet to have all the answers when it would probably take constitutional lawyers years to unpick and offer alternatives

Randoms on the internet may not have all the answers but it's never stopped anyone discussing issues before. The thread that's running about the media being a case in point.

I would also put money on there being constitutional lawyers with opinions on here.

Roussette · 27/04/2023 19:08

Coxspurplepippin · 27/04/2023 19:03

Randoms on the internet may not have all the answers but it's never stopped anyone discussing issues before. The thread that's running about the media being a case in point.

I would also put money on there being constitutional lawyers with opinions on here.

I very much look forward to hearing from them

IronCurtain · 27/04/2023 19:21

@Novella4 I agree with a lot of that.

I think the monarchy will continue to evolve and adapt to contemporary expectations. Fewer exceptions will be made for them in the legislative framework, increased scrutiny over taxes and so on. I also believe their popularity will continue to fluctuate depending on circumstances - no one can predict exactly how but it’s pretty much been the history of monarchy for over a thousand years. The Queen rode a high in her latter years due to her longevity. Her father due to the war. Both had low moments as well. Charles may never reach the same highs but you never know when a twist of history will propel some of them again into public admiration.

The rest of the UK ‘establishment’ will also continue to evolve and I’d be happy to see reform happen incrementally, following established legislative cycles and paths. If we never have the kind of distracting chaos of the likes of Brexit again, I’d be thrilled.

But my overarching feeling is that the British democracy is one of the strongest in the world. Not due to fitting a year 1 politics textbook description of what democracy looks like but due to its extraordinarily strong tradition. And any vectors of change would do well to take that into account

IronCurtain · 27/04/2023 19:24

Roussette · 27/04/2023 19:08

I very much look forward to hearing from them

@Roussette many years ago I heard a professor of constitutional law once speculate that the monarchy is so steeped in the democratic tradition that they’re more likely to sign an Act of Parliament abolishing the monarchy than and Act of Parliament abolishing the Parliament.

sample of 1, zero research value😊. Just an anecdote that stuck in my mind

skullbabe · 27/04/2023 19:25

IronCurtain · 27/04/2023 15:47

sigh

@Novella4 just a personal plea to say I’m interested in the debate not in confrontational language for the sake of score settling.

I very clearly in my post listed the monarchy as a ‘prime example of an institution that is not intuitively democratic’. It has, however, been one of the core institutions of the British state and contributed to its form of democracy.

Of course the Parliament is an established institution - also not intuitively democratic if you think about its unelected upper chamber and lack of separation between the executive and the legislative. But one of the most successful institutions of its kind in the world…

What I’m saying is that disruption to these institutions can be dangerous. So let’s say we move to an elected head of state role. Their remit will have to be codified by new acts of Parliament so that will be a political debate largely driven by the interests of whoever holds the majority at the time.

Then elected, how? Directly, through FPTP? Indirectly by Parliament? Again, in UKs largely two-party system I think it’ll end up a much more partisan institution than in most European cases, which tend to be PR.

And then, practically, I’m not sure we stand to gain much through a change that I imagine would be fraught, very highly debated and hugely distracting.

None of these challenges are insurmountable; all I’m saying is that they come with risk. Of course, if there’s enough political incentive to push through (see Brexit) it absolutely can happen. 🤷‍♀️

I do think that becoming a democratic state would be difficult and there will be missteps but should be the goal. The system as is is not working - the head of state in their ceremonial decorative roles are trapped in their gilded cages, our unelected upper chamber are mostly a variety of clergy and members who have been favourable to the political party of the time and an elected lower house which has been dysfunctional and not truly representative for a long time. It is broken but many don’t see it as such hence the “if is ain’t broke ethos”.

IronCurtain · 27/04/2023 19:37

I see that @skullbabe , there are many areas of dysfunction.

But it is also true that the UK has enjoyed so much stability and prosperity within this system. So some things were done right.

If it was up to me I would probably have many other priorities way before dealing with the hereditary monarchy - such as constitutional clarity over the (limits to) powers of the PM so that they stop making it up as they go along (ahem, Boris). Bringing it back to the Royal Family though, and despite my views on their role in the UK, I cannot for the life of me understand why on earth they’re still accepted as Head of State in other countries. Like, WTF? Doesn’t make any sense at all?

thanks everyone for the debate. Finding it really interesting

Coxspurplepippin · 27/04/2023 19:43

There are very many intelligent, hardworking, good people in the HOL, who produce a lot of extremely valuable work. The likes of Alan Sugar undeservedly get the attention, and the HOL definitely needs reform (and the numbers reducing). The Lord's spiritual only make up about 3% of the HOL, but to dismiss their input because they're clerics is a bit short sighted perhaps.

Novella4 · 27/04/2023 20:31

www.waterstones.com/book/abolish-the-monarchy/graham-smith/9781911709305

Why we should and how we will

-some summer reading for those interested in the details

Coxspurplepippin · 27/04/2023 20:41

Novella4 · 27/04/2023 20:31

www.waterstones.com/book/abolish-the-monarchy/graham-smith/9781911709305

Why we should and how we will

-some summer reading for those interested in the details

The first review on the site is by Owen Jones which makes me immediately want to not read it, but I will.

CathyorClaire · 27/04/2023 21:01

Yes. They've done damage that is probably irreparable

Yet the decades long royal association with paedophiles and the grabby takes on behalf of their own vanity projects charities is constantly brushed aside.

Neither side is covered in glory.

Aintshesweet · 30/04/2023 21:35

The debate itself on radio 4 was well balanced and it’s been interesting reading the points of view here.

I am personally of the view that the monarchy is a complete anachronism. I hope that many of those who have expressed discontent will turn that into positive action. The organisation Republic just reported that they have received an uptick in membership requests.

Along with other Republican commentators, I want to add this from the wonderful Sue Townsend back in 2001 from her book, The Public Confessions of a Middle Aged Woman aged 55 1/2’.

Prince Charles for King?

I've had this theory for some time. I've kept it to myself so far because I fear public ridicule. I feel like the person who, many hundreds of years ago, first ventured the opinion, ‘Er, do you think it might be possible that er… the earth is… er, actually round instead of er… flat?’ So bear with me, will you? My theory is this: I think Prince Charles would be relieved if the institution of the monarchy was to be brought to an end. I have no evidence to put before you; I am certainly not on intimate terms with Prince Charles. In fact I am not on any terms with him. Nor am I likely to be. But I have this feeling. On the face of it the job of king looks quite attractive. The money is extremely good, the holidays are long, you get to see the world, you don't have to worry about missing your plane because of roadworks on the M25 – your plane waits for you. Come to think of it, if you are king, what are you doing on the M25? Why aren't you in your own helicopter, flying above the traffic-bound masses? When a king reaches his destination he doesn't have to lug his baggage under a scorching sun towards a taxi driver who is picking his nose and wiping his finger on the upholstery. No, a king is led by flunkies towards an air-conditioned limousine that proceeds to drive along streets closed to normal traffic due to ‘security’. There may be a little light waving to be done to the gaggles of flag-brandishing schoolchildren fainting of sunstroke on the pavement, but there is no danger of straining the royal wrist: for just as children from ordinary backgrounds are trained by their parents to open the top of a cornflakes packet without mangling the whole box, or to empty a pedal bin without scattering eggshells underfoot en route to the dustbin, so are royal children trained, almost from birth, to perfect their wave to the crowd. Other advantages of being king are… meeting world-famous figures; having twenty-four hour room service (every day); and having a book written about you with a cover photograph that depicts you as being a deeply serious, anguished individual. Already bowed down with their future responsibilities, kings are able to leave home knowing that somebody will feed the pets and that the video won't be stolen. They don't lie awake at night worrying about class, agonizing, ‘Am I upper-lower-middle?’ or ‘Am I lower-working scum?’ Kings can confidently assert, ‘I am upper, upper, upper' and know that no British person will contradict them. When we wore lizardskin shoes and lived in caves, I suppose it made sense to have a king, somebody who bossed us about and made sure the fire was kept going. In medieval times we were told that the king had been ordained by God and that a touch of his royal digit would cure us of our disgusting, scrofulous diseases. We also believed that the earth was flat and that mangel-wurzels were delicious. In other words, we were ignorant peasants who lived in hovels and did not have the advantage of public libraries. It's hard to be king in the late twentieth century. The public is so much more sophisticated. Babies are now born knowing how to programme the video to record Rosie and Jim. Let us now look at the disadvantages of being king: Travel You are met off the plane by a collection of late-middle-aged men in new suits, who sweat with nervous tension as they are introduced to you. Their handshakes feel like decomposing fish. They are nervous because you are the king. Meeting the famous Most famous people are boring. They only want to talk about themselves and constantly interrupt when you want to talk about yourself. The only reason they agree to meet you is because you are the king. Your biography Because your biographer comes from that ancient dynastic family the Dimblebys, you feel obliged to tell him all your innermost thoughts on the deprivations of your miserable childhood. You forget that your mother and father can read and that a good thrashing, a cold bedroom and poor food constituted the childhood of most British people born in the Forties. So you fail to get any sympathy and in your heart you know that the book has been commissioned, written and published because they think you will be king. One day you say to yourself, ‘I have not been ordained by God. I am human and I want to be free.’ Like I said, it's only a theory.

OP posts:
LlynTegid · 02/05/2023 18:15

I'm in favour of having the monarchy, happy to see it debated. Not surprised it is, as before the late Queen died many people in favour of a republic seemed to qualify it as 'after the Queen dies'.

Delectable · 04/05/2023 13:39

Amongst issues being discussed is their income, expenditure and wealth. One thing the RF do not want exposed. They're happy to change laws to benefit them in terms of inheritance, marriage etc but not to reveal their wealth. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/apr/05/how-the-british-royal-family-hides-its-wealth-from-public-scrutiny

The RF personally reprimanded 91yr old Tim O'Donovan for keeping a tab on the engagements they attend which can be used to show how much time they spend in "service" in a year. Mind you, "service" or "work" isn't what anyone in the real world terms work. It's actually fun things commoners use their hard earned wages to pay for to attend or take time off work to attend. Eg elaborate dinners, lunches, parties, giving trophies at Wimbledon, opening new buildings, attending concerts, meeting celebrities etc. Unlike the average peasant who buys their own clothes, their travel ticket and makes their way there. These people have chauffeurs, personal staff, ladies in waiting, chefs, butlers etc who do everything including wake them up and pick their clothes. However, when discussing what they do it must be described as "work". https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/08/world/europe/uk-royal-family-workload.html

"Every year, Mr. O’Donovan releases a comparative table listing the number of engagements attended by the highest-ranking royals, setting off a flurry of barbed commentary in the British news media. The feeding frenzy comes because Mr. O’Donovan, intentionally or not, has effectively invented a metric of how much the members of the royal family work." https://whorunsbritain.blogs.lincoln.ac.uk/2018/01/13/mr-odonovans-annual-survey-of-royal-engagements/ You can see William and Kate did the least "work" aside two older members.

Here's a good clip every tax payer should listen to https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2023/may/01/cost-of-the-crown-part-1-valuing-the-family-podcast