Henry VIII - waste of space?

[ImJustMadAboutSaffron]

"Apart from his immaturity over religion and which way he really swung, and the total waste of lives, time and money fighting France which achieved sod all - just for starters - anyone got a good word to say for the guy?"

These are not my words neither is the subject heading, I saw it on Facebook. But was he a waste of space? I do have one good word to say for him though I'm not going to start discussing religion.

Yes he maintained his catholicism in all but name.

I had to explain Henry VIII to my DM recently as she didn't know about the 6 wives, history of the church of england, beheadings etc as she hated school. She now thinks he was a total bastard.

The best thing about H8 and his entourage is the clothing .
All hand sewn.
Lace imported from ? Belgium, silks from ?China, pearls from the east, rubies from Burma -amazing craftsmanship.

I don't think that's right.

Rh+ is dominant, so if he and mum were both -ve then all babies would be -ve (matching mum, no problem) and if mum was +ve explain all babies would be +ve (matching mum, no problem).

It would make sense if he were +ve and Anne Boleyn was -ve. Then Elizabeth and all future babies would be +ve and there'd be a mismatch.

It's just been announced that Hilary Mantel has died — seemed appropriate for this thread.

Very sad. She was a brilliant writer.

They just don't make things like they used to anymore 😂

I mean I have a Tupperware box manufactured 30years ago, it's outlived it's more modern creations. I'm starting to believe said Tupperware box is bombproof.

There are laws going way, way back to deal with the poor - yes, usually in the sense of 'how shall we deal with this social problem' rather than 'how shall we create the welfare state,' but that's not really a shocker? I know wikipedia is a really useful resource and I'm not knocking it, but when it says English Poor Law was codified in the Tudor period, what it's partly getting at is that these laws existed before that, but were often regional, or religious practice (not just a concern for monasteries but also for individuals). None of it necessarily looks exactly like modern law, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, or didn't inform later law in any relevant way.

I saw that.

I wonder a lot about the medical side of royalty’s frailties and failures. I’m almost certain, for instance, that Catherine of Braganza, Charles II’s wife, was Rhesus negative, which would explain her repeated miscarriages and stillbirths.

I wonder what was up with Henry’s son, Edward VI. TB may have been rife, but was he maybe asthmatic? (Henry’s older brother also had chest trouble). Might there have been something like Cystic Fibrosis in the mix, assuming that was survivable past early childhood?

And then there was Queen Anne: major autoimmune issues there, possibly lupus, possibly PCOS, maybe that would have foxed the specialists even today.

Poor Queen Anne. In the space of one year she had a miscarriage, a stillbirth and lost her two living children.

@KillingMeDeftly Yes, the poor woman had 17 pregnancies but only one child lived, William, who became the Duke of Gloucester. Unfortunately he died aged 11, it is thought of hydrocephalus.
It is widely believed that the reason behind Queen Anne’s miscarriages and stillborn children was because she suffered from antiphospholipid syndrome, an immune disorder that turns the body against itself.

@Pinktoothbrushesarefab Yes, that's the syndrome that came to my mind too as a couple of my friends have it. It's treatable once diagnosed but diagnosing it is the tricky bit as it usually only happens after you've had at least two miscarriages.

Poor woman, and what a woman to stoically continue leading the country with all this going on. Shows that history is largely written by men, she is barely remembered because she didn't produce a living heir.

Oh, this is fascinating! What was your logic for all of these diagnoses?

My hunch is that cystic fibrosis would have been fatal earlier on, but I'm not sure? It seems unlikely given he seems to have been active and healthy earlier?

With Anne - would autoimmune diseases account for those of her children who lived well beyond birth?

The thing that always strikes me is that, if you look at perfectly ordinary families, they often experience the same death rates. It's not that we need to look to diagnose unusual diseases. It was just easier to die - of anything.

Same with Mary II and Matilda, @shedwithivy - one a more or less completely forgotten Queen (there was a lengthy historian’s thread on twitter covering every monarch since Alfred the Great and guess what - he missed her out!) and the other with the most amazing life story, but never written or talked about.

Agreed. She had a truly horrible time and valiantly tried her best, in heart breaking circumstances.

I'd like to know what the Black Prince died of, whether it was cancer or a degenerative illness. I've read that it was dysentery but he was ill for a number of years and dysentery usually kills you pretty quickly. Perhaps it was stomach or bowel cancer.

@Serenster Matilda doesn't get the attention her DiL Eleanor of Aquitaine does but she led just as eventful a life.

In Susan Howatch's Wheel of Fortune (a reworking of the story between about 1913 and 1967) she has the equivalent character dying of multiple sclerosis.

No doubt continually marrying close relatives down the generations undermined the health of royal offspring. A Papal Dispensation, which made it alright religiously, didn't actually help physically of course.

The bastard children of kings were noticeably healthier than the legitimate ones

I find his reign fascinating, but I do think he has some kind of Princess Diana effect. Scandal and intrigue. Because of the way his reign has been focused on and others neglected in popular media, we don't seem to think there were many fascinating kings and queens before or after him. Average people would be able to tell you some things about Henry Viii and his reign, some stuff about Richard III, Elizabeth I, George III and Victoria. Because of the focus in school history classes and the popular dramas produced about them. Same as with Lady Diana. Princess Alexandra (later Queen) was Princess of Wales for 38 years and was so popular, women dressed like her and even imitated the limp she had. But the average person probably wouldn't even know we had a Queen consort called Alexandra, much less a princess of Wales.

I had to explain Henry VIII to my DM recently as she didn't know about the 6 wives, history of the church of england, beheadings etc as she hated school. She now thinks he was a total bastard.

I find it fascinating that someone could have reached an age to be old enough to be someone's MIL and not know about Henry VIII and his 6 wives.

I'm loving this thread BTW.
I have read most of Philippa Gregory's books based on the Tudors, and have often spent ages on google reading about them.

I will of course be googling some more after reading some of the posts on here.

Two of Anne's daughter died of smallpox within a week of each other.

There's no need to be so unkind about my DM @RampantIvy as we are in Scotland and I was never taught Tudor History (until I studied history at uni), my DM never was, my DD has never been taught.
So unless you are English, read history books, watch historical documentaries or dramas, and are neurotypical (I suspect my mum has ADHD), its not really much of a surprise that she doesn't know, just that her reaction to the news was funny.