Henry VIII - waste of space?

[ImJustMadAboutSaffron]

"Apart from his immaturity over religion and which way he really swung, and the total waste of lives, time and money fighting France which achieved sod all - just for starters - anyone got a good word to say for the guy?"

These are not my words neither is the subject heading, I saw it on Facebook. But was he a waste of space? I do have one good word to say for him though I'm not going to start discussing religion.

@blablablagobshite He had a chromosome issue preventing him having children and blamed all his wives for not producing full term children (against the odds he had Elizabeth)

That is one theory.

Another is that his blood group was Rh-ve.

So the first child of any union was OK viz - Katherine of A = Mary, Anne Boleyn = Elizabeth, Jane Seymour = Edward (he was a bit sickly and died young, possibly of congenital syphilis.)
After those first pregnancies the mothers' blood was sensitised to the Rh factor and had produced antibodies effectively destroying the red blood cells in the foetus' blood. So later pregnancies resulted in miscarriage or stillbirths.

Gave an ancestor a load of monastic land during the reformation that I'm sure they enjoyed - any family riches have long since gone.

But that would only work if all of his surviving children were the first born children of their mothers, which they weren't - Katherine had at least one stillborn child before Mary.

No, Mary was the fifth child of Catherine and Henry. After three stillborn and Henry Duke of Cornwall who lived 7 weeks.

But that would only work if all of his surviving children were the first born children of their mothers, which they weren't - Katherine had at least one stillborn child before Mary

One of the biggest sliding doors in history - what if that Henry had lived?

Or if Anne hadn't miscarried a son - how strange to think of Elizabeth I relegated to being the dutiful sister of the king!

Henners?! I was enjoying the discourse until I read that (not envy)

As much as I love this thread, I realised I googled something about Henry VIII at about 10pm to reply....and here I am at nearly 2am having fallen down rabbit hole after rabbit hole on monarchs, acts of parliament, letter patents and all sorts 😂😂

I can't even remember what I was replying to?!

But I learnt today having followed the line all the way to the house of Windsor, that Prince William (Duke of kents son) died in a aircraft race in the 70's 🤦🏻‍♀️

Like wtf I started with Lady Jane Grey!!!

Prince William was the Duke of Gloucester's son.

Yes sorry 😳 I must have the Kent's and Gloucester's mixed up!!

Yes, the current Duke is a qualified architect who had to give up his practice to become a working royal after his older brother died.

There is no way Anne Boleyn cheated on Henry. She played an eight-year long game to secure him. She isn’t then going to sleep with several courtiers and her brother! But she was a flirt… and Thomas Cromwell used her character to build the ‘no smoke without fire’ argument.

You have to remember Henry VIII always believed what was convenient at the time to serve his current purpose. It was convenient to believe Anne had committed adultery in order to get rid of her. It has been demonstrated that people are more inclined to believe a big lie than a small one. Anne committing adultery with one courtier, not likely - why would she risk everything? Anne committing adultery with several courtiers and her brother!? So outrageous, it has to be true else who could utter such depravity? Thomas Cromwell understood propaganda before the term was invented.

Yeah, much easier to discredit and bring a woman down by calling her a "slag" and men will always believe rumour of women's behaviour 🙄 a tale as old as time!

Everyone is and is not a waste of space. I believe everyone makes decisions or does things that are both detrimental and positive for future generations. That's life.

He came to the throne a couple of decades after the war of the roses, which lasted thirty years, he must have been so desperate to leave a clear line of succession to avoid another civil war. He just didn’t think a woman could lead his armies and control the various power struggles.
Such an irony that his daughter was Britain’s best monarch and led a golden age.

I think post Elizabeth I it is harder to understand that a female monarch wasn't a given on English throne.

Queen Catherine was left as Regent and lead English army to victory -www.smithsonianmag.com/history/when-catherine-aragon-led-englands-armies-victory-over-scotland-180975982/ - it was just keeping the throne - first to do that was Mary I his child.

Some monarchies like France excluded female line entirely - and prior to Henry VIII only woman who tried to take the thrown was Empress Matilda/Maude which had lead to a civil war - The Anarchy.

Plus Tudors weren't as secure a dynasty as we now think of them - their claim not that strong.

I have seen some historian suggest he was happy to set his first illegitimate son up as heir - but he then died.

I'm not sure Anne ever wanted to "secure" Henry. She was in love with Henry Percy but their marriage was forbidden and she caught Henry VIII's eye later. I suspect she thought he'd never actually divorce Katharine and break from Rome and when he did she may have felt she had no choice but to marry him. Let's face it, if the king was after you then there was no escape!

Also, unpopular view but I think Katharine should've said yes to the annulment. She could've then lived out the rest of her life as Dowager Princess of Wales in a comfortable household and been able to see her daughter. But she was a woman of strong principles and the daughter of Isabella so I guess she would rather die than accept defeat.

David Starkey is a bit persona non grata these days but his book on the six wives is actually very good and strips away a lot of the mythology surrounding them.

In The Tudors didn't they portray Anne as being a tease and not sleeping with Henry straight away so she could be his wife not a mistress?

It also portrayed Henry as a virile young man right up to the end of his days so I'm not sure it can be relied upon for historical accuracy!

WelI no, have mentioned this before on this thread - I'm sure Henry VIII didn't
look like Jonathan Rhys Meyers.

I thought a lot of the history about Anne stated this but I've never read anything from David Starkey.

Say what you want about Henry but he never suffered from low self esteem. He was a role model for believing in yourself and cutting toxic people out of his life - quite literally often with an axe or a sword

In The Tudors didn't they portray Anne as being a tease and not sleeping with Henry straight away so she could be his wife not a mistress?

That is accurate however - historians are pretty clear that Henry started courting Anne in 1526. In 1527 their correspondence shows that they considered themselves to be formally engaged (though obviously the whole still-married-to -Catherine situation needed to be resolved). Their letters to each other that survive make it clear that they weren’t sleeping together (Henry does write about kissing her breasts though, so they obviously weren’t totally hands off!)

It wasn’t until very late in 1532 that they actually had sex though, just a few weeks before they were married in 1533. That’s a mind-boggling 6 years.

Sometimes I long for the days that showing someone the sharp side of a sword for disrespecting you/being toxic was acceptable 😂😂

@KillingMeDeftly what's the issue with David Starkey?

It would make for some interesting AIBUs. Can you imagine Henry's?

"Hello ladies, bloke here posting for a female perspective. My second wife has not provided a much needed son to continue the family business. I've given her everything, including changing the official faith of the country. I can't afford another divorce. AIBU to consider execution? TIA"

(Apologies to Anne B, who was badly treated)

I feel for the poor groom of the stool who was on bum wiping duties when Henry's health was in decline. I can't imagine he'd have been the most patient if you accidentally pinched his piles.