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The royal family
Original poster

Who advised the Queen to walk into the Abbey escorted by Andrew??

996 replies

TinyTortoise · 29/03/2022 13:07

This seems to be the most tone deaf and damaging decision. It's a public facing event with international leaders and royals. If it was a closed family gathering I could understand it - he is her son still- but why on earth would they allow him to escort her to her seat?! He should be invisible from now on and never represent the RF again. He could have attended and stood somewhere out of the way. She could have chosen anyone to escort her. It's staggeringly awful!

OP posts:
TatianaBis · 30/03/2022 12:07

Having consensual sex with a victim of trafficking is not an offence, nor was it an offence at the time of the alleged encounters. In the UK, it is still not an offence to have sex with a victim of trafficking provided it is consensual and you do not pay or offer to pay.

Trafficked, coerced, exploited sex is not truly consensual. Trafficking involves services offered by a person in a position of vulnerability under the control of another person/s, who may achieve this by abuse of power, by force or threats.

VG was in not in a position to give free and informed consent.

Swayingpalmtrees · 30/03/2022 12:10

Having consensual sex with a victim of trafficking is not an offence, nor was it an offence at the time of the alleged encounters. In the UK, it is still not an offence to have sex with a victim of trafficking provided it is consensual and you do not pay or offer to pay

I understood VG was a minor in that state therefore unable to give consent even if she wanted to.

prh47bridge · 30/03/2022 12:18

@Swayingpalmtrees

Having consensual sex with a victim of trafficking is not an offence, nor was it an offence at the time of the alleged encounters. In the UK, it is still not an offence to have sex with a victim of trafficking provided it is consensual and you do not pay or offer to pay

I understood VG was a minor in that state therefore unable to give consent even if she wanted to.

Being a minor does not mean you cannot consent to sex. In the UK, for example, you can consent to sex once you reach 16, but you are still a minor until you are 18.
LBFseBrom · 30/03/2022 12:25

@TatianaBis

Having consensual sex with a victim of trafficking is not an offence, nor was it an offence at the time of the alleged encounters. In the UK, it is still not an offence to have sex with a victim of trafficking provided it is consensual and you do not pay or offer to pay.

Trafficked, coerced, exploited sex is not truly consensual. Trafficking involves services offered by a person in a position of vulnerability under the control of another person/s, who may achieve this by abuse of power, by force or threats.

VG was in not in a position to give free and informed consent.

I agree with a lot of that but the fact is Andrew has consistently denied having sex with her and there is no evidence that he did, yet so many people want to believe the worst of him.
mydogisthebest · 30/03/2022 12:25

@Myee

Queenie seemed to approve. She is not the cuddly granny we'd like to think she is at all. Maybe it was her way of giving the finger since she was forced, unwillingly I'd bet, to strip A of his titles and roles.

If A had any integrity ( forgive me while I burst out laughing), he could have tested "positive" for Covid the day before and watched it on the telly.

Watch his father's memorial on the telly! Don't talk such rubbish.

He absolutely should have been there. Some people think he should not have walked the Queen in and out but surely only the most heartless frothers think he should not have been there at all.

As others have said even convicted killers get to go to the funeral of a parent or sibling

Thoosa · 30/03/2022 12:29

Some people think he should not have walked the Queen in and out but surely only the most heartless frothers think he should not have been there at all.

When you say “heartless frothers” does that mean those of us who disapprove of rape, hebephilia and sex trafficking? Including those of us who are survivors or sexual assault?

Swayingpalmtrees · 30/03/2022 12:35

Being a minor does not mean you cannot consent to sex. In the UK, for example, you can consent to sex once you reach 16, but you are still a minor until you are 18

VG was below the age of consent, in the state where the offence took place, therefore she is unable to give consent even if she wanted to (and her account is that she did not have free will regardless). As you well know and are playing with words phd

VG was a minor AND below the age of consent. Hence the lawsuit.

Myee · 30/03/2022 12:36

He WAS at his father's funeral. So no injustice in him not being at the memorial due to "Covid"

BadgerB · 30/03/2022 12:36

HardyBuckette Wed 30-Mar-22 11:58:12

The mish mash of random things you wrote are not a valid argument. You haven't even told us how you think they're relevant, which is not a great surprise. What exactly are you claiming that VG not having taken legal action against her parents tells us about her case against Andrew? Let's have it spelled out clearly so we can all see exactly what claim you're making here.
-----------------------
I wasn't making any argument here. I said nothing about V.G. and her parents, that was "queenofarles". It's difficult on MN to reproduce an argument/discussion between several people, at least, it is for me. What I said was, you have not answered any of "queenofarles" points, which you obviously don't agree with, but which are certainly not "meaningless".
"queenofarles" made several valid points. It is up to you to refute them.

prh47bridge · 30/03/2022 12:37

@Thoosa

Some people think he should not have walked the Queen in and out but surely only the most heartless frothers think he should not have been there at all.

When you say “heartless frothers” does that mean those of us who disapprove of rape, hebephilia and sex trafficking? Including those of us who are survivors or sexual assault?

Where does hebephilia come into this? There is no suggestion of that with respect to Andrew. Hebephilia is a sexual preference for children in early adolescence, typically aged 11-14. Giuffre was 17 at the time of the alleged encounters.
TatianaBis · 30/03/2022 12:39

I agree with a lot of that but the fact is Andrew has consistently denied having sex with her

Well he would wouldn’t he.

HoneyFlowers · 30/03/2022 12:41

What happened in his private life stays there. He's still the Queen's son on her husband's ceremony and she can do what she pleases.

cabansunset · 30/03/2022 12:42

As awful as Andrew is, he is the queens son, and was Philip's son too. He was entitled to attend, and he still did so while knowing how hated he is. I don't think there was a right or wrong way for him to arrive, the sight of him was always going to piss people off. I would imagine the queen wanted him there, she loves him obviously and an event like this is about family.

When Charles is king, I don't think we'll see much of him at all.

Viviennemary · 30/03/2022 12:43

The Queen obviously wanted it that way. And she is old enough to make up her own mind. And anyway what does it matter.

prh47bridge · 30/03/2022 12:48

@Swayingpalmtrees

Being a minor does not mean you cannot consent to sex. In the UK, for example, you can consent to sex once you reach 16, but you are still a minor until you are 18

VG was below the age of consent, in the state where the offence took place, therefore she is unable to give consent even if she wanted to (and her account is that she did not have free will regardless). As you well know and are playing with words phd

VG was a minor AND below the age of consent. Hence the lawsuit.

No, she was not. I am not playing with words. Her evidence is clear that she was over the age of consent in all three of the locations where the alleged encounters took place. Her lawsuit does not allege otherwise. She refers to herself as a minor but she does not claim that she was under the age of consent (not surprisingly as such a claim would fail). She was 17 when the alleged encounters took place. In all three locations concerned, that was over the age of consent.

The lawsuit has absolutely nothing to do with her being below the age of consent. If it did, she would have failed as, on her own evidence, she was over the age of consent. It was about alleged sexual assault of a victim of trafficking and emotional distress caused by him denying her allegations.

SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 30/03/2022 12:50

@HoneyFlowers

What happened in his private life stays there. He's still the Queen's son on her husband's ceremony and she can do what she pleases.
Oh dear christ, could you be any more sycophantic?
TatianaBis · 30/03/2022 12:52

Where does hebephilia come into this? There is no suggestion of that with respect to Andrew. Hebephilia is a sexual preference for children in early adolescence, typically aged 11-14. Giuffre was 17 at the time of the alleged encounters.

I wouldn’t say there was no suggestion, just not in the case of VG.

However, PA stayed at Epstein’s place in Florida and his private island more than once. The Florida staff and neighbours commented on the steady stream of young teenage girls entering and leaving the property on a daily basis, several times a day.

At the air strip at St Thomas (Caribbean island) one air traffic controller commented:

”On multiple occasions I saw Epstein exit his helicopter, stand on the tarmac in full view of my tower, and board his private jet with children—female children,”

”One incident in particular really stands out in my mind, because the girls were just so young. They couldn’t have been over 16. Epstein looked very angry and hurled his jacket at one of them.”

Another air employee said:

“There’d be girls that look like they could be in high school…. “They looked very young. They were always wearing college sweatshirts. It seemed like camouflage, that’s the best way to put it.”

”I could see him with my own eyes. “I compared it to seeing a serial killer in broad daylight. I called it the face of evil.” link

Are we to believe that PA never noticed the stream of young girls surrounding him? Never questioned why they were there or where their parents were. And never had the benefit of the services of any other teenage girl other than VG?

EthelTheAardvark · 30/03/2022 12:54

@TatianaBis, none of that evidences hebephilia by PA.

Thoosa · 30/03/2022 12:57

Thanks @TatianaBis

I didn’t have the stamina to point out the obvious to the deliberately dense.

Thoosa · 30/03/2022 12:59

[quote EthelTheAardvark]@TatianaBis, none of that evidences hebephilia by PA.[/quote]
So do you or would you spend your spare time hanging out on island full of middle aged millionaires and trafficked teens?

If not, why not?

prh47bridge · 30/03/2022 13:08

@Thoosa

Thanks *@TatianaBis*

I didn’t have the stamina to point out the obvious to the deliberately dense.

Thanks for the insult.

As EthelTheAardvark says, none of that shows hebephilia by Andrew. Indeed, it isn't clear that the witnesses are talking about girls in early adolescence as opposed to mid-teens. And, to respond to the last question in TatianaBis's post, none of Epstein's other victims have made any allegations against Andrew apart from one who claimed that he used the hand of his Spitting Image puppet to touch her breast - like Giuffre, she was over the age of consent at the time. There is no evidence whatsoever that Andrew engaged in sexual activities with girls who were under the age of consent, let alone girls in early adolescence. That doesn't mean he didn't - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But there is currently no reason to believe he did.

Roussette · 30/03/2022 13:10

Sorry - missed NOT in the first line. Rather important...

I think that's your true feelings coming out Badger

I also wonder what the girls that VG recruited into Epstein's world now think of her behaviour

What... the other girls apart from VG who were groomed and trafficked? Some posters just do not get it. They need to read how young vulnerable girls are groomed

There is so much victim blaming on this thread it makes me feel nauseous.

EthelTheAardvark · 30/03/2022 13:12

So do you or would you spend your spare time hanging out on island full of middle aged millionaires and trafficked teens?

Irrelevant to the point I was making, @Thoosa

SueSaid · 30/03/2022 13:13

'one air traffic controller commented:”On multiple occasions I saw Epstein exit his helicopter, stand on the tarmac in full view of my tower, and board his private jet with children—female children,”

'Are we to believe that PA never noticed the stream of young girls surrounding him?'

Well the 'air traffic controller' didn't do anything about it (what good eye sight they must have to view passengers from their position). How questionable that they didn't report the incidence of 'female children' being transported.

It's all just a hearsay circus now.

Epstein was a convicted offender, that is the only proven fact we have.

Aworldofmyown · 30/03/2022 13:14

My immediate reaction was the same. Then I thought about and decided, as others have said, it was probably the best solution. He is still her son, and Prince Phillip was his father, so being entirely absent is awful. Just a difficult situation really.