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The royal family

Prince Charles to alter the Letters Patent - Sussex Children won't become Prince/Princess

999 replies

Comeinoutoftherain · 20/06/2021 07:35

Apologies for the Daily Mail reference, but it's all I have so far.

Apparently PC told H&M shortly before the Oprah interview that his intention was to amend the Letters Patent so that only the children in direct line to the throne (aka William's children) would receive the Prince/Princess title.

So neither Archie nor Lilibet were going to be "upgraded" to Prince/Princess on the Queen's death.

That explains that slightly vague comments made in the OW interview about Archie not being made a Prince; and why relations between PC and H&M were clearly very fraught.

If this is true (and I accept it's hard to see the wood for the trees with the constant press briefings from both sides) I can see it from both points of view.

Harry is in Prince Andrew's position (as a royal, not as a person) which makes Archie and Lilibet on a par with Beatrice and Eugenie. As they get older, and William's children start their own families, the Sussex children drop down the pecking order pretty quickly.

I think Charles has it right that the British Public don't want to keep paying for an extended royal family, you can see that playing out in Europe at the moment. So even if H&M were working royals, their children likely won't be; and I can understand why he wants to present a limited number of royals to the public.

From Harry's perspective, it must feel like a downgrade. It must be difficult being the second (and only other) child in a hierarchical monarchy; being aware from the beginning of all that William is to inherit. Having his children lose something that is currently their birthright must sting a bit.

This should probably have been considered before William and Harry had kids. I doubt it would have been as big a deal when you are not considering actual children, just abstract ones. Or at the very least, it should have been done when the Letters Patent were altered for George, Charlotte and Louis.

It's clearly added to an already tense atmosphere and won't help family relations get back on track.

OP posts:
StartupRepair · 23/06/2021 21:27

Meghan said in South Africa that her own friends had warned her about the tabloids but she didn't listen. I sense she has huge confidence in her own interpretation of events and does not easily admit that others may know better.

WinnieTheW0rm · 23/06/2021 21:30

So why deny botox and hair extensions then

That arose because a particular clinic was claiming they did her, and that piece of false advertising was challenged (who knows if she has it done, but it certainly wasn't with the firm which was attempting to pass her off as a client)

Mummy194 · 23/06/2021 21:33

@WinnieTheW0rm

So why deny botox and hair extensions then

That arose because a particular clinic was claiming they did her, and that piece of false advertising was challenged (who knows if she has it done, but it certainly wasn't with the firm which was attempting to pass her off as a client)

Which a quiet letter to the practice would have done effectively. I'm sure they were not the first or last to use the royals for such.
Allington · 23/06/2021 21:46

A 'quiet letter' may have stopped the lie being repeated, but the impression of endorsement would have remained.

Very different context

PicsInRed · 23/06/2021 21:46

@StartupRepair

Meghan said in South Africa that her own friends had warned her about the tabloids but she didn't listen. I sense she has huge confidence in her own interpretation of events and does not easily admit that others may know better.
Her British or British connected friends warned her but it wasn't that she didn't listen - she didn't understand the difference between the respective cultures of the UK and the US, how the media outlets operate here vs there and probably the level of feeling held here around royalty vs what she saw in Canada. I think she thought she got it, but she couldn't get it as she wasn't raised amongst it. She also hadn't had the privilege of experiencing the sneaky, sly British version of racism and probably didn't quite see where that was going until it was too late.
SenecaFallsRedux · 23/06/2021 22:14

But once William becomes king although Archie could be 4th in line, he won't be a grandson of a reigning monarch so wouldn't get Prince anyway.

Assuming that the Letters Patent of 1917 are in force and Charles had preceded William, Archie would be a prince from the moment Charles became king. Furthermore, the Letters Patent of 1917 say "any Sovereign", not the reigning sovereign.

DeRigueurMortis · 23/06/2021 22:28

@SenecaFallsRedux

But once William becomes king although Archie could be 4th in line, he won't be a grandson of a reigning monarch so wouldn't get Prince anyway.

Assuming that the Letters Patent of 1917 are in force and Charles had preceded William, Archie would be a prince from the moment Charles became king. Furthermore, the Letters Patent of 1917 say "any Sovereign", not the reigning sovereign.

Which presumably circles back to the fact that if Charles wanted to stop the Sussex children from being titled Prince/Princess in due course, he'd have to persuade HMQ to issue changes to the LP before he became King.

MaleficentsCrow · 23/06/2021 22:28

Seneca even more reason to amend them now so he never has the title. He's no need for it.

However I do t think it will happen. The second the Queen dies, Charles is king and Archie will always be his grandson. The Queen won't file them , and even if Charles makes it his first act as King, he can't demote Archie.

PicsInRed · 23/06/2021 22:36

The Queen included pictures of H&M (among others) in her drawing room today for meeting the PM. That's her message - H&M are still family and still "in", regardless of what courtiers want.

She also expressed compassion for Hancock to an awkward Johnson. I'm not a huge fan, but the whole thing was a fairly slick operation. 😂

DeRigueurMortis · 23/06/2021 22:43

@MaleficentsCrow

Seneca even more reason to amend them now so he never has the title. He's no need for it.

However I do t think it will happen. The second the Queen dies, Charles is king and Archie will always be his grandson. The Queen won't file them , and even if Charles makes it his first act as King, he can't demote Archie.

I disagree.

M saying she wasn't bothered about titles baring (the incorrect) association with security provision, was I think an own goal (if indeed this was important to her and Harry).

Claiming titles from a country/family/institution that you have chosen to disassociate yourself from because you believe them to be both toxic and racist would be very odd - because if you do you're effectively legitimatising that which you criticise.

Taking the titles away makes the RF look petty and gives credence to the accusations of racism.

Equally taking and using the titles, following the accusations that have been made makes you look hypocritical.

The RF is very much better placed to leave this ball in H&M's court.

SenecaFallsRedux · 23/06/2021 22:44

Which presumably circles back to the fact that if Charles wanted to stop the Sussex children from being titled Prince/Princess in due course, he'd have to persuade HMQ to issue changes to the LP before he became King.

No, because he could issue new LPs that have retroactive application. That's what happened to Prince Alastair of Connaught who went to bed a prince one day in 1917 and woke up a mere Earl.

DeRigueurMortis · 23/06/2021 22:47

@SenecaFallsRedux

Which presumably circles back to the fact that if Charles wanted to stop the Sussex children from being titled Prince/Princess in due course, he'd have to persuade HMQ to issue changes to the LP before he became King.

No, because he could issue new LPs that have retroactive application. That's what happened to Prince Alastair of Connaught who went to bed a prince one day in 1917 and woke up a mere Earl.

I thought we'd established earlier in the thread that could only be done via an act of Parliament and not LP's????

BasiliskStare · 23/06/2021 22:49

I think any allegations against Meghan of bullying should be investigated , not least so she can be exonerated if not true. Equally I think throwing out random allegations of racism should be investigated so this doesn't hang over people.

SenecaFallsRedux · 23/06/2021 22:53

An act of Parliament is required to change the succession or to remove a peerage. LPs are sufficient to change princely titles and styles.

HeddaGarbled · 23/06/2021 23:18

I think any allegations against Meghan of bullying should be investigated , not least so she can be exonerated if not true. Equally I think throwing out random allegations of racism should be investigated so this doesn't hang over people

I think opinions are so entrenched on this now, it’s all fairly pointless, as no one’s mind will be changed regardless of the outcomes.

DeRigueurMortis · 23/06/2021 23:22

@SenecaFallsRedux

An act of Parliament is required to change the succession or to remove a peerage. LPs are sufficient to change princely titles and styles.

Thank you for the clarification.

MaleficentsCrow · 23/06/2021 23:22

I agree with you, leaving it in H and M hands is probably best, which is why I don't think anything will be done. Queen won't , Charles would then be seen as stripping them of titles as his first act.

Personally I don't agree that a child raised in America should have a British noble title when he will have nothing to do with that society. But hey ho, I don't have to make those decisions I'm just a peasant of the realm 😂

DeRigueurMortis · 23/06/2021 23:28

@HeddaGarbled

I think any allegations against Meghan of bullying should be investigated , not least so she can be exonerated if not true. Equally I think throwing out random allegations of racism should be investigated so this doesn't hang over people

I think opinions are so entrenched on this now, it’s all fairly pointless, as no one’s mind will be changed regardless of the outcomes.

I'm not sure on that point.

I'd absolutely agree that some people's opinions are so deeply entrenched that even compelling and credible evidence would be ignored (whichever "side" it supported).

Then you have people willing to think about the subject on a case by case point - so yes x acted badly in this respect and y acted badly in another (and in reverse).

That said I think there's a majority of people that simply aren't that invested at all

  • they've got "real life" issues to deal with that are far more pressing. However, if information comes to light that's deeply damaging they will start to form opinions on the subject.
DeRigueurMortis · 23/06/2021 23:29

@MaleficentsCrow

From one peasant to another Wine

Thisbastardcomputer · 23/06/2021 23:31

Interesting reading all this

MargaretFraggle · 24/06/2021 00:22

The King of Sweden stripped all but two of his grandchildren of their HRH titles in October 2019. Charles was said at the time to also like the idea of a slimmed down monarchy.

A younger child of the King of Sweden said she was happy because it gave her children: "a greater opportunity to shape their own lives".

Maybe Charles thought Harry would feel the same given how he has always felt about his role.

JustLyra · 24/06/2021 00:51

It should be kept in mind though that the Swedish grandchildren kept their Princely titles and the biggest reason was because of the issue with the schooling of Princess Madeleine’s children and the annual appenage adults in the royal house get.

Working royals in the Swedish house all get an annual allowance. They are also required to be educated at school in Sweden, which as Madeleine and Chris O’Neill live abroad is an issue.

The removal of the HRH and removal from the royal house was about recognising that they won’t be taxpayer funded (which as royal house members would have been automatic) at any point.

JustLyra · 24/06/2021 00:51

*biggest reason they lost their HRH

DeRigueurMortis · 24/06/2021 01:00

@JustLyra

It should be kept in mind though that the Swedish grandchildren kept their Princely titles and the biggest reason was because of the issue with the schooling of Princess Madeleine’s children and the annual appenage adults in the royal house get.

Working royals in the Swedish house all get an annual allowance. They are also required to be educated at school in Sweden, which as Madeleine and Chris O’Neill live abroad is an issue.

The removal of the HRH and removal from the royal house was about recognising that they won’t be taxpayer funded (which as royal house members would have been automatic) at any point.

It strikes me that the Swedish RF have a very pragmatic and appropriate strategy for navigating the politics of monarchy in the modern age.

Such as Prince/Princess "school" for anyone marrying into the family to ensure they are (appropriate to their potential seniority) fully understanding of expectations, protocol, constitutional law, international diplomacy etc etc.

CrazyCatsAndKittens · 24/06/2021 01:09

Is Harry back in the UK now? Surely, he needs to quarantine before the statue unveiling or is there a fast track system for those travelling from the US?

The Mail are claiming that Clarence House accounts show clearly that Harry was funded by the Royals while living in the US which contradicts what he said in the Oprah interview, even though they are financially independent now. Does this highlight yet another mistruth?