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The royal family

Prince Charles to alter the Letters Patent - Sussex Children won't become Prince/Princess

999 replies

Comeinoutoftherain · 20/06/2021 07:35

Apologies for the Daily Mail reference, but it's all I have so far.

Apparently PC told H&M shortly before the Oprah interview that his intention was to amend the Letters Patent so that only the children in direct line to the throne (aka William's children) would receive the Prince/Princess title.

So neither Archie nor Lilibet were going to be "upgraded" to Prince/Princess on the Queen's death.

That explains that slightly vague comments made in the OW interview about Archie not being made a Prince; and why relations between PC and H&M were clearly very fraught.

If this is true (and I accept it's hard to see the wood for the trees with the constant press briefings from both sides) I can see it from both points of view.

Harry is in Prince Andrew's position (as a royal, not as a person) which makes Archie and Lilibet on a par with Beatrice and Eugenie. As they get older, and William's children start their own families, the Sussex children drop down the pecking order pretty quickly.

I think Charles has it right that the British Public don't want to keep paying for an extended royal family, you can see that playing out in Europe at the moment. So even if H&M were working royals, their children likely won't be; and I can understand why he wants to present a limited number of royals to the public.

From Harry's perspective, it must feel like a downgrade. It must be difficult being the second (and only other) child in a hierarchical monarchy; being aware from the beginning of all that William is to inherit. Having his children lose something that is currently their birthright must sting a bit.

This should probably have been considered before William and Harry had kids. I doubt it would have been as big a deal when you are not considering actual children, just abstract ones. Or at the very least, it should have been done when the Letters Patent were altered for George, Charlotte and Louis.

It's clearly added to an already tense atmosphere and won't help family relations get back on track.

OP posts:
JustLyra · 21/06/2021 02:04

Regarding the Cambridge children. Two changes to the Letter Patent were made. One (as a nod to progress) was to ensure any female child would not be bumped down the chain of succession by younger male siblings.

The line of succession is nothing to do with LPs. The change made from male preference to absolute primogeniture was made through an act of Parliament and agreed with all of the countries that the Queen is head of state of. It’s not something the RF themselves got to choose.

The other was to "accelerate" the provision of the titles Princess/Prince to Charlotte and Louis so they were on par with George (who in the direct line of succession was automatically a Prince). This was needed, in effect because of HMQ's longevity. Typically there has historically been little need to address the issue of great-grandchildren because being blunt the monarch didn't live long enough to have any. Having George a Prince but his siblings not would have been an anomaly within the same family "unit".

The decision to title all of William’s children was made in case his eldest was a girl.

Under the new rules she would not have been superseded by a younger brother, however under LP’s she would have been “Lady...” rather than Princess. A
younger brother born later would, under the 1917 LP’s as the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales, have been HRH Prince...

It was to prevent a future Queen being outranked title wise by her younger brother until their grandfather took the throne.

This was done as a one off issuing of LP’s pertaining only to the children of Prince William. The 1917 LP’s still stand in their entirety for everyone else going forward.

RickiTarr · 21/06/2021 02:08

.

DeRigueurMortis · 21/06/2021 02:52

The line of succession is nothing to do with LPs. The change made from male preference to absolute primogeniture was made through an act of Parliament and agreed with all of the countries that the Queen is head of state of. It’s not something the RF themselves got to choose.

I agree and should have been clearer.

I was trying to summarise the changes that were made wrt the Cambridge children.

You're correct that the mechanisms for the succession and titles were different.

As for the titles, my understanding was that both the issue I raised and you raised were factors. In other words all siblings being similarly titled and to avoid the anomaly of a first born female child and heir to the throne having a lesser title than a younger male sibling. The change to the LP's resolved both issues.

CrazyCatsAndKittens · 21/06/2021 03:10

As for Charles' alleged plans to change the rules about who gets a title, however, the Palace is staying tight-lipped, it seems. "We are not going to speculate about the succession or comment on rumors coming out of America," a royal source told The Sun of the recent reports.

I think it's clear that this is more bullshit rumours coming from the Sussex camp. I thought they were taking a break?

Pixxie7 · 21/06/2021 04:53

Things change, society changes Prince Charles wants to rule in his own way and if slimming down the monarchy is want he wants, good on him. Meghan and Harry have decided that their life is to be different a decision that will obviously affect their children, neither of whom will be brought up within the royal family, so won’t be contributing anything to this country.
Although I don’t think that the decision about their titles have anything to do with them leaving after all I know Prince Andrews daughters have the titles of princess but neither princess Anne’s or Prince Edwards children do.

YellowMonday · 21/06/2021 06:55

@CrazyCatsAndKittens, lol, and wasn't the timing interesting with Catherine's release of her work with early childhood development...

AncientandFabulous · 21/06/2021 06:57

Thank you JustLyra for answering my earlier question.

MathsyUsernameGoesHere · 21/06/2021 09:14

Great posts @DeRigueurMortis. That's my understanding too.

Personally I think the hrh & Prince/princess should be removed from all non working grandchildren of a monarch so Beatrice & Eugenie become Lady B & Lady E. The Wessex children also shouldn’t be able to use the royal titles either.

Why? What does it matter if they're Princess or Lady? Prince/Princess doesn't come with any entitlement to funds or security, so who cares which ridiculous title from a wealthy family they have? It's not like it's a mark of achievement or worth.

Rainbunny · 21/06/2021 10:28

I think what annoys me about H&M's bitterness over Archie's title is the hypocrisy of their position.

Their royal titles are meaningless in the USA but more importantly they are the very embodiment of what is rightly rejected in modern societies. Their titles represent the accident of birth elevating a person (however mediocre) over others. There is nothing more anti-democratic, anti-meritocratic and feudalistic. They proclaim themselves to be activists trying to make society fairer and more progressive, indeed both Meghan and Harry have declared themselves feminists. How do any of their professed beliefs fit with the toxic reminders of an unjust past where the public was subjugated and exploited by the aristocracy?

I would really respect them if they decided to out their money where their mouths are and ditch the titles. Never going to happen of course.

As a casual republican I agree with Charles slimming down the monarchy a move in the right direction IMO. It's hardly new news that he wants to do this anyway, he's discussed this for years.

If Charles and William want the monarchy to survive in future years they have to be seen to trimming the excess trappings. The irony is that H&M's attacks on the royal family are making it less popular, which in turn means that Charles and William after him will have to be strict about keeping the royal institution lean and not bloated and wasteful.

I'm sure Harry hasn't realised that he's inadvertantly making the best case for why Archie shouldn't be titled.

PurpleOkapi · 21/06/2021 13:18

@DeRigeurMortis - Thanks! I was just about to post the same thing: Charles can't do anything to the Letters Patent until he's King, but as it stands, they'll become HRH Prince(ss) the moment he becomes King, so unless Harry has more kids after that, I don't think anything is going to change.

I have to wonder about the timing, too. Meghan said this was brought up while she was pregnant with Archie, but now supposedly they were told about it shortly before the Oprah interview - about two years later.

JanetheObscure · 21/06/2021 13:45

I think it's clear that this is more bullshit rumours coming from the Sussex camp. I thought they were taking a break?

Just to say that the Sussex camp aren't very likely to have planted the Mail on Sunday story, seeing as MM has only just finished suing the paper for copyright infringement.

WinnieTheW0rm · 21/06/2021 13:54

H is still in the line of succession. To remove him (and thus his children) would need an act of Parliament

It wouldn't remove his children as they were legitimately born into the line of succession, and so are there in their own right.

Edward VIII added the verbiage about his as-yet-unborn (and as we now know never-to-be-born) DC to make it clear that once he abdicated, and children born after the abdication would never enter the line of succession.

One angle in all this to remember is that if ghastly tragedy struck the Cambridge family (something like a catastrophic plane failure when they're all travelling together) then Prince Harry will have to decide if he will come back and embrace Royal life as potential King Henry IX, and what that means for his family, Archie in particular

diddl · 21/06/2021 14:03

Harry or Andrew!

What a bloody disaster if it came to that!

Would either of them have the good grace to step aside or would they feel that they had to "do one's duty"Hmm

Wanttocry · 21/06/2021 15:01

@JanetheObscure

I think it's clear that this is more bullshit rumours coming from the Sussex camp. I thought they were taking a break?

Just to say that the Sussex camp aren't very likely to have planted the Mail on Sunday story, seeing as MM has only just finished suing the paper for copyright infringement.

But I think the DM article was basically reporting what has been written in a book, wasn’t it? I can’t remember now and don’t want to go hunting for it but I thought it was about a new book that has the new “details” of a fight between Harry and William, H&M being told this titles thing just before the Oprah interview. Obviously could very easily still all be nonsense, but I don’t think the DM was getting anything directly from sources.
Wanttocry · 21/06/2021 15:03

@diddl

Harry or Andrew!

What a bloody disaster if it came to that!

Would either of them have the good grace to step aside or would they feel that they had to "do one's duty"Hmm

Well to be fair, even if you don’t like Harry, I’m not sure anyone would want him to step aside if that left Andrew free to be king.
CrazyCatsAndKittens · 21/06/2021 15:06

I don’t know, but The Mail have changed their tune today and are now saying they will be Prince Archie and Princess Lilibet, but may wait until they are 18 to use their titles like Louise and James.

Viviennemary · 21/06/2021 15:08

Sounds to me like there were discussions about titles for Harry's future children even before they were born. I think the Wessex's saying no to use of Prince and Princess kind of set a president. I dont think Archie or his sister will get the titles Prince and Princess.

CrazyCatsAndKittens · 21/06/2021 15:11

The article was just a load of waffle really. Loads of “a source said” and “it’s been said”.

www.google.co.jp/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9704475/amp/Prince-Charles-wont-let-Archie-prince-plans-slim-monarchy-save-costs.html

RickiTarr · 21/06/2021 15:12

But I think the DM article was basically reporting what has been written in a book, wasn’t it? I can’t remember now and don’t want to go hunting for it but I thought it was about a new book that has the new “details” of a fight between Harry and William, H&M being told this titles thing just before the Oprah interview.

Yes it’s Robert Lacey making another small fortune this week. Not even a new book, just an “updated edition” to his book from last year. Battle of the Brothers? Breaking Brothers? Something alliterative.

So it won’t be bollocks, it will all be double-sourced etc and he’s had official palace access in the past (I think back as far as the 1970s) so his contact book is good, but boy is he breaking it up into Rabbit Poo and selling every titbit three times. Really squeezing the £££s out of every morsel he learns. He has just written the official book accompaniments (plural) to The Crown too, as well as being Special Adviser to the television production itself.

All a bit unseemly, but an actual writer unlike Scobie.

RickiTarr · 21/06/2021 15:16

@CrazyCatsAndKittens

I don’t know, but The Mail have changed their tune today and are now saying they will be Prince Archie and Princess Lilibet, but may wait until they are 18 to use their titles like Louise and James.
I think that’s a wrangle at the Palace about exactly what Charles is allowed to do. It’s not that the original story was wrong. I can’t pretend Lacey gets stuff wrong I just don’t like him. Smile

I’ve lost track of which thread I’m on but there’s a poster on one these threads that sounds like she really knows it all inside out too.

It’s a rolling squabble. Not bollocks.

Viviennemary · 21/06/2021 15:17

Its all a biit unseemly. All want a bite of the royal cherry. There's money to be made.

PicsInRed · 21/06/2021 15:19

@CrazyCatsAndKittens

I don’t know, but The Mail have changed their tune today and are now saying they will be Prince Archie and Princess Lilibet, but may wait until they are 18 to use their titles like Louise and James.
Well now, would you look at that.

Someone obviously had a word with someone around the crapulent optics of it all.

RickiTarr · 21/06/2021 15:22

So much money. I’m getting a bit sidetracked just watching it all and guesstimating. It’s almost as good as the main plot.

RickiTarr · 21/06/2021 15:23

Someone obviously had a word with someone around the crapulent optics of it all.

Too late now.

PicsInRed · 21/06/2021 15:24

@RickiTarr

Someone obviously had a word with someone around the crapulent optics of it all.

Too late now.

Ha! Accurate.