any vets out there who wouldn't mind a PM to discuss an animal welfare issue?

[lurkingfromhome]

I can't ask my own vet about this for reasons that will become clear. I am concerned about an animal but really need to discuss implications of what I want to do. Anyone who knows a bit about this?

There are vets who post here but like the rest of us, they do so on a purely voluntary basis and you can't guarantee their presence at any time. There are also a lot of people posting who eg volunteer for rescues though and they may have some good experience for you to use, Any chance of you posting a bowdlerised version of your problem?

Thanks cozie. This is a very very abbreviated version of events and more of a hypothetical situation really.

Imagine you acquired a cat who had been "abandoned". You take him to the vet to get checked out and neutered etc and the vet asks if he is microchipped. You say ah, I don't know, so vet checks and finds that he is indeed chipped and of course the details of the original "owner" emerge. Unbeknownst to the vet, the original "owner" is in a heap of trouble with the RSPCA anyway regarding the welfare of a different pet but the cat is not on the RSPCA's radar.

What would the vet do? Legally would he be required to contact the owner? This would be under a Scottish Animal Welfare Act, by the way (don't know if that makes a difference).

I don't want to give more info than I have to but if you need to ask any specific questions then please do. Thanks so much.

Legally I am afraid the vet is under a duty to contact the original owner. Our code of professional conduct is very clear about this. The vet should not have given you any information about who the owner is as this is a breech of the data protection act.
If the vet has genuine concerns about the welfare of the cat they are allowed to breech client confidentiality to protect the welfare of the animal.
The governing of this is really under the RCVS's code of professional conduct and without the durestriction of welfare acts.
You could of course call the SSPCA and make them aware the owner has a cat as a concerned member of the public.
I have discovered a 'stray' with a microchip and also breech client confidentiality due to welfare concerns (not the same animal), but took advice on my obligations from both the RCVS and my defence union.

Thank you lonecat. I haven't spoken to any vet yet so no confidentiality has been breached.

I know the original owner, however, and am not prepared to let him have the cat back as I have seen at first hand the neglect the cat has suffered throughout its life.

Reluctant to involve the SSPCA as there is a chance, however slim, that the cat will be signed over to him or will have to stay in a rescue centre for up to a year while the case for the other animal waits a court date.

Would the vet contact the owner directly and therefore not be aware of the charges brought against him with regard to the other animal? So he could theoretically just turn up and reclaim his cat back?

Vets are constrained, for good reason, by their professional obligations.

In my position, living in Scotland, I'd gather a pair of hulking relatives/acquaintances, go visit the 'owner' and grinningly explain that the cat wanted to live with me so would be allowed to so do.

I can't recommend this as a course of action obviously.

Ha! Yes, had thought about that.

The thing is I can't keep the cat myself (already have two cats one of whom is terrified of this one and owner knows where I live so potential problems down the line) although have been looking after him for weeks and have changed him from a malnourished, neglected, scared boy into a lovely, happy, confident, playful one. I want to rehome him with a lovely caring family I know, who would care for him as much as I have. I don't want to involve them in any wrongdoing. The issue is when they take him to the vet what will happen? Fuck. Might have to invole the SSPCA after all although I was hoping to circumvent that.

Let me amend that non-advice then.

....In my position, living in Scotland, I'd gather a pair of hulking relatives/acquaintances, go visit the 'owner' and grinningly explain that the cat had been found another home and you were sure that the 'owner' would be happy about it....

I think you have a straight choice between the personal route or the legal route. (And believe me, I'm only too cognisant of potential reprisals - where I live, even the cats carry light weaponry.) Think of him like a child albeit without the legal or social protection a child would have,

The new owners just need to lie to the vet...bought it on gumtree should do it.

The vet isn't going to check for a microchip if there's no reason to.

So has the cat actually been checked for a chip yet?
If not in my experience these are the kind of people who don't bother to chip.
Having seen practice as a student in these areas in Scotland I was say even more unlikely to be chipped than down South.
I once have a taxi driver describe an area of Aberdeen to we as even the cats go armed the eat their own bairns round here.

And so then when the cat goes to the vet and the vet sees the owner's details and contacts him, owner would say that he had willingly given up ownership of said cat?

I do indeed think of said cat as a child. If I could keep him I would, as I have become incredibly attached to him. All he needed was a comfy warm bed, regular meals, lots of cuddles and affection and knowing he had a safe loving home to come back to. However, since I can't keep him, my absolute priority is making sure he goes to an equally loving home and that the twat owner (who abandoned him entirely a week ago) doesn't get his hands on him again.

Thank you very much for helping me work out options. I really do appreciate it.

I know the cat is chipped as I've seen the paperwork (don't ask ...).

When the new owners go to the vet, though, will the vet not ask if he is chipped? And if they say they don't know, will vet not scan the cat and find out? This is the only issue stopping me from sending cat on to lovely new home.

Ok here's another question. If the new owners say they bought the cat on Gumtree, would the vet still be obliged to contact the old owner? Perhaps only if he had registered the cat as missing on the microchip website (which I'm not sure he will think to do).

I think that in this case, that's a secondary issue. (There's nothing to stop a cat being re-chipped and some are all the time.) You need to sort out his ownership and give him to any new owners with 'clean hands'.

Regardless of how the new owners acquired the cat the vets duty is to whom the microchip is registered.
Is there an SSPCA rescue centre locally that might take the cat find the chip and put the pieces together?

As far as I know, the chip just gives off a barcode...the chip database company would have to be contacted for the vet to contact the previous owners.

So if they have no reason to scan them...as in, is it chipped? Yes the form has been sent off.

Of course it'll always be chipped to the original owners, but without contacting them or going to the SSPCA, that's going to be the case anyway.

There's no way of changing the owner for the chip or getting it rechipped without an issue as then the previous owner would have to become involved.

I'm saying barcode...I mean the number on the chip.

Really what you want to do, is get someone to go round and say, I think this is your cat...it's moved into my house, my children/ granny (anyone that might work for that purpose) are absolutely besotted with it and I really would like to buy it from you as they're heartbroken that we've found the owners after x weeks of it living in our house.

Failing that working, I'd just lie to the vet...I mean it's not ideal, but it would work...

So it would only be if the cat were subsequently to go missing, get found and the chip scanned that this would be an issue (as the original owner would be named).

Otherwise:

vet: is cat chipped?
owners: yes

end of story?

lonecat The SSPCA are already involved with owner because of another neglected animal of his. Cat would have to be taken to welfare centre 100 miles away as no space in our local one. If owner refused to transfer ownership of cat to SSPCA (which he might, as he is an unneutered pedigree breeding cat, ie a money-making machine) cat would have to stay in rescue centre until the case came to court, which could take 6-12 months. I can't risk that happening as he has had such a shit life so far and has been moved around, neglected, abandoned, ignored, moved around again and has never had anywhere where he feels secure and cared for. I know the SSPCA would do a fine job but I can't bear the thought of him in a cage in a rescue centre for anything up to a year because that twat won't relinquish him.

The only other prospect if that SSPCA are going to bring charges next week about the other animal and that would probably give them a stronger case in trying to persuade him to hand the cat over. He'd still have to be taken 100 miles away and kept in rescue centre for 7 days until he could be claimed. I wanted to avoid that too but if it turns out that's the only safe option I'll have to go with it.

tabula I doubt he'd sell for the reasons I mentioned - he said before he wants to get "another litter out of him" and that's why he's not neutered

The new owners I have in mind are lovely (and fairly upstanding pillars of the community kind of people) and I don't want to get them involved in something that could come back to bite them.

You're worried about personal reprisals? (That's not a criticism if so - it's a very real issue to some people.)

If the cat is signed over to SSPCA there would be no 7 day wait as ownership had been transferred. The cat would probably be in the rescue longer than 7 days any way to get him neutered and vaccinated before re homing.
Whilst being in a pen at a rescue centre is not ideal it can be the lesser of two evils. Also being 100 miles away is better in these cases than close by.
Over the years I have been involved in several of these kinds of cases the first was a dog who I fostered until resolution enabled me to adopt her. Next a cat who was signed over, but it was agreed that getting him out of the area was the best solution he went to live 100 miles away.
Finally my tail less wonder who was the subject of a cruelty case and I was the principal prosecution witness due the complexity of this it was decided that she should spend several months in a rescue so that my ownership/ witness position should not be compromised. Yes it wasn't perfect for her, but she is very happy with me now and her previous owners can no longer keep PTS.

Yeah that does make it trickier :(

I wouldn't normally advise lying to vets btw...it's just with something like that, they have no options to bend rules.

The chips on my pets have never been checked or used in anyway at the vets after the conversation about them being chipped, including rescues that already came chipped. So yes, I can't see why answering yes wouldn't work.

That would be pets.

But if they won't sign the cat over and hold out in the hope of getting it back, it will be kept in a shelter until the court case won't it?

Not really, although it did cross my mind that we have two cats of our own and he could fairly easily come back here and swipe one (holding it hostage, sort of) if he knows we are behind his cat's disappearance. My plan has been to feign complete ignorance and tell him I haven't seen the cat for a week (since he abandoned it entirely, after months of neglecting it) and it's probably miles away by now.

He is young, stupid, feckless and entirely irresponsible but not dangerous, I don't think. He has lived a few houses away for a few months but is moving out today/tomorrow (he buggered off a week ago and is just coming back for his stuff, AFAIK). I kind of want to get things dealt with once and for all and not give him any encouragement to come back here every day to look for his cat. I just want him gone. Hence thinking it would be better just to deny any knowledge of cat's whereabouts.

I really have to thank you all for being so helpful. I've been losing sleep about this for a couple of weeks and it's so nice to know that people want to help and advise.

Sorry, that last epic post was to cozie. Lots of cross-posting!

Often once solicitors get involved 'owners' who are being prosecuted wisely see the light and sign the other pets over.