Cats and Dog don't get on - need to boost cats confidence, is this possible...?

[babysaurus]

Will try and keep this brief.
We had two cats, now aged 7 and 5, and four years ago also got a Border Collie, who's now four. In our old house the cats stayed upstairs and could come and go via a cat flap in one of the windows which lead out over the extension, but we have now moved and this is not possible.
The cats and dog, and I regret this massively, have never spent much time together and the dog, despite being told time and time again, hates cats - she is a chaser and will go for cats (not aggressively though - will explain better in a sec.) We intially got told by many people with both dogs and cats that the cats would eventually get nosy and come downstairs, and would also realise that they could leap up onto things out the way or shoot out the downstairs cat flap if needs be. Unfortunately this never happened and, as we also had the cat flap outside, they just stayed upstairs. As we have now moved to a house where we cannot have the upstairs cat flap, the cats are currently residing upstairs which I feel, even though the cats don't seem fussed at the moment, is unfair.
If my dog see's a cat which then arches its back and / or hisses she (the dog) looks away as if she didn't see (quite comical to watch actually!) However, our two cats are slightly timid and would simply run away.
All the advise I can find seems to involve putting the cats in a crate, teaching the dog to 'leave' etc etc which has worked slightly at the time, but doesn't make them intregrate. It also doesn't seem remotely fair on the cats. In a perfect world, I want the cats to get a bit more fesity and realise that the dog, despite the barking, is actually a bit of a wuss (she is scared of some of the more hissy cats where we live) - is this possible...? Realise I may be asking the ridiculous but I am stuck for any other ideas!
Thank you!

I introduced a scared cat to my new dog by shutting us all in a room together with the dog on a lead. The idea being that the cat couldn't escape. I was worried if the cat ran then the dog would chase. This was slightly ruined by the cat going up the chimmney! However when she came down from the chimmney we carried on. Dog didn't show a lot of interest and it took about three hours for the cat to come down off the TV and be a bit braver. I think you may need to force the issue in a controlled environment.

And if your dog shows interest then make it clear its not allowed to.

hmmm, we have considered similar. The thing is, our dog will not calm down for a VERY long time which doesn't help my guilt levels! She can get quite squealy and het up, even on the lead, and will calm down but we have to be VERY firm - this is fine but, as I keep saying, I just feel terrible for the poor cats!
Maybe I am just too bloody soft myself

I think you need to work on getting the border collie to be less interested in the cats. Easier said than done, I know. Does she want to herd the cats?

You can work on getting her attention away from the cats, and rewarding (with a treat, or a toy if she's not food-motivated) any time that she pays attention to you instead of the cats. Or even any time she so much as looks away from the cats. If she is trying to follow the cats, you can get her to sit or lie down and then reward that (I know that laying down can also be a herding behaviour, but you can use this to your advantage as a way of stopping her from running after them).

The cats will hopefully become braver if the dog is less excited by them. Make sure they have plenty of places they can escape (high up, or small places to hide) if they feel the need to make a sharp exit from the dog. The more time they spend together, the more dog savvy they will get. But I would put your focus on making the dog less scary to the cats.

Thanks Redwing. In short, the border collie goes a bit mental at all cats, unless the cat in question is arching it's back / hissing etc.

If she was in the same room as our cats, and we'd have her on a lead of course, she'd be squealing / very het up and it would take at least half an hour for her to even start to become calmer (I can't say 'calm down' as that would give the wrong impression!) I know this as she was similar when we tried to get the dog and cats used to one another more by having a cat in the dog crate and getting the dog to 'leave' the cats and then giving her chicken (and the cats were given chicken although they didn't eat it) as a reward - this was some advice given via MN which was in a similar vein to yours. She did, kind of, 'leave' but was laid on the ground manically panting with a wild crazy look in her eyes - and it seemed very unfair on our poor cats!

I do feel as if it would be a lot easier for the cats if they realised that even just a bit of hissing and back arching will make the dog back off but gawd knows how I do that!

I think I'd be keen to force it by having them in a room together as long as cats are high up. Their natural instinct if she lunges at them will be to hiss & spit & if it is mainly excitement in her part a scratched nose will soon put her off.

Don't think I'd use lead as that might increase excitement, obviously if you are worried she might actually harm them then would need to.

We have a BCollie and had 2 cats, now have 1, older pts last year. Younger cat & dog adore each other because older cat was bossy & dominated both of them. Dog still very excited about 'other' cats outside but never about ours.

I very much doubt the dog would harm them, she is more giddy than agressive.
Looks like I might have to bite the bullet - sorry cats

babysaurus, I can just picture the dog being so excited! And I can see why a crate for the cat would be suggested, but it wouldn't really satisfy the dog's curiosity as it couldn't get close enough (and the poor cat probably wasn't too pleased either since it couldn't get away).

I know a very similar dog, and rewarding him when his attention is away from the cats (even very briefly) has really helped. He still finds the cats very exciting, but will listen to commands when they are in the room, which is real progress. And the cats have gradually got braver to the point where they will walk right past him. The poor dog lies there brimming with excitement but scared to move in case it makes the cats go away!

It sounds like your bc won't harm the cats at all, so it's worth persisting with the introductions. You've got a status quo that's okay, so it won't matter if it takes weeks or even months. The dog has to learn how to behave around the cats and vice versa. Whatever you can do to make it a positive experience for both creatures will help. Maybe you can have the dog in a sit or down and tempt the cat nearby with a treat? (Recognizing that 'nearby' from the cat's perspective might be quite a long way away to begin with, but can gradually get closer). Good luck with it anyhow - it will be worth the effort to be able to have the cat on your lap while the bc is at your feet!

Thank you for your reply. I think I am going to have to make sure the cats have places to jump up onto (we are currently renovating so the house is a bit all over the place) and then start. I have put it off and off as it didn't matter so much in our old house, and also everything seemed unfair on the cats. (Incidently, the dog has also been known to get het up when she hears one of the cats names - I have it as a password and during a call to Orange she leapt up and started barking! Evesdropper!)

ps I am pretty sure we'll be talking months not weeks too!

Haha these dogs are so clever! (though it's maybe not the safest password since someone might guess it ...).

I think you will be fine. Yes, good idea to make sure the cats have plenty of escape routes should they want it and start then. Let us know how you get on.

I will do. I need to hang on for a bit though till we have covered the parts of the floorboards where the floorboards are currently up or the cats will just run in there.
I wish all this wouldn't feel for unfair on the poor cats though! As I say, if they were tough little hissers it would be different, but they're not.
Wish me luck, I'm (unfortunately) going to need it!

Babysaurus I'll wish you luck but I think it's going to be easier than you think. You need to be consistent and determined, but it can be done. I managed to get 2 cat hating Border collies to live happily with a cat. One of those collies even curls up to sleep with the cat and can sometimes be seen modelling a 'cat hat', when the cat decides to leap on her from above.

I started off with introductions each evening, when all the animals had been fed and therefore happy. Dogs on leads, cat free to roam, I did start off the first few times with the sitting room door closed, so the cat was forced to stay in the room with them but had places to hide.

There was noise and attempts to intimidate the cat, I gave treats to the dogs when behaviour was positive, plus treats to the cat because he was in the same room as these slobbering, howling, scrabbling, growling beasts. Repeat each evening and for slightly longer. It didn't take the cat long to suss out the dogs ( I have a new respect for cats intelligence!) and his confidence grew in their presence, so that he wasn't frightened when they sniffed him etc. One collie would be wiggling and frantically dancing on the end of her lead, to get near the cat. By the end of the first week, the cat would be so relaxed, he would sit and groom himself just out of reach, drove the dog mad.

He has only had to scratch each of them once, both on the nose, when they thought they had him cornered under a sofa. Out came his paw of justice and they both realised, there was a bit more to cats than they thought. The first time he growled at them, one of my collies came and tried to hide behind my legs and he was only a little kitten

The dog "looking away" is her canine way of showing they are submitting to the cat. Dogs dislike being stared at & to look away is to say they accept they are not as far up the pack (I.e. Your family) as the cat.

I have 3 cats, the eldest if being annoyed by the dog - which is usually if he is trying to walk past him - will give the dog a death stare. The other tom will play with the dog, convinced he thinks he's a dog too, they chase each other & usually the dog tires first! The girl is timid generally but not to the point where she will continually avoid him.

Cats being higher is another sign of hierarchy. Higher than the dog then they're showing the dog it's place, which of course cats love to do.

I would suggest training your dog to lie and stay whenever the cats come past. Let the dog focus on you, however you train it, clicker, treats etc. Once the cats have gained confidence now doggy is no longer after them then you can relax it a little. Takes time but if it makes for a less chaotic house then worth it.

The dog "looking away" is her canine way of showing they are submitting to the cat. Dogs dislike being stared at & to look away is to say they accept they are not as far up the pack (I.e. Your family) as the cat.

I have 3 cats, the eldest if being annoyed by the dog - which is usually if he is trying to walk past him - will give the dog a death stare. The other tom will play with the dog, convinced he thinks he's a dog too, they chase each other & usually the dog tires first! The girl is timid generally but not to the point where she will continually avoid him.

Cats being higher is another sign of hierarchy. Higher than the dog then they're showing the dog it's place, which of course cats love to do.

I would suggest training your dog to lie and stay whenever the cats come past. Let the dog focus on you, however you train it, clicker, treats etc. Once the cats have gained confidence now doggy is no longer after them then you can relax it a little. Takes time but if it makes for a less chaotic house then worth it.

pmsl Paw Of Justice

MrsDanver I really really hope you're right! We're the border collies you talk about quite obsessive? Mine used to get very squealy / jumpy in our old house when she heard the cats upstairs.

Will keep referring to this thread to keep my spirits up! I am slightly ashamed that it has gone on for so long but, as I said before, in our previous house they could go in and out as they pleased via the upstairs.

Yes my collies were both cat obsessed, still are to other cats outside the house. I have to confess, I even encouraged one of my collies to chase cats in our garden, as I have had loads of bother with a huge tom cat stalking my hens, one of my girls died of a heart attack, running away from him ( the other collie wouldn't have bothered with the cat first, because she would have been trying to eat the hens)
If your collie is toy obsessed, you could introduce a new toy each time they meets as well as food treats.
Good luck.