Would you recommend spaniels as first dogs?

[spockerlife]

Family with children (will probably be ages about 8/9 and 5/6.) Sprocker specifically?

If not, are there any other recommended breeds? I do love Labradors but they are quite big.

But that’s because there are pros and cons to all breeds, rather that all from a breed are unsuitable
And of course they are all individuals. The general pattern here is one person will recommend a breed due to their experience with a handful of dogs. Leading others to point out downsides they have personally experienced with others of the same breed.
Which is as it should be.
The vast majority of rescues will not rehome to families with children under six. Often older. And many better breeders are of the same opinion. Clearly their reasoning is primarily weighted in the best interests of the dog and it can work, but it’s bloody hard going to do it well with younger kids imo
Posters asking for advice deserve to hear the reality. I’ve helped far too many people over the years who went in with a Disney view and got themselves in a mess through lack of knowledge up front. It probably comes across as negative to those who’ve never experienced the downside of it all going wrong and ending up with major issues but the ‘all labs are brilliant family dogs’ is overly positive. I know plenty of labs who have bitten

A lot of hard work. My in-laws have got one.. Nice but never bloody sits down

We have a show cocker absolutely wonderful dog. Loves curling up on your lap after a good walk and is great with children. Very intelligent so will need training as a pup but would definitely recommend getting one from a reputable breeder.

I agree. My first dog was a show cocker and she was worth all the hard work. I have another one now, totally different to my first and feels more working than show, but she is also worth all the hard work.

This 100% @runnerducky.

People always recommend Golden Retrievers. In the last week, we've been contacted by ten people wanting to re-home their Golden Retriever. Eight were because a bite on a child or near enough miss the parents don't want to risk it again. This is in a relatively 'small' area.

But person after person after person on MN will say 'perfect dog for families with young children.'

Golden Retrievers are lovely dogs. I would never be without mine. But every dog breed has its issues and there is a reason why people flag the bad - too many people go in only expecting the good, and life doesn't work like that. If more people went into dog ownership, particularly gun-dog ownership, with their eyes open and with the facts there would be less dogs PTS and ending up in rescue.

The answer to most dog questions are "it depends" [smille]

I have wcs and collies and working labs. The wcs have more energy than all of the other dogs put together.

As child we did have the most amazing springer that was just the best family pet ever. However we had land and space and in those days I would wander about all day with my dog and noone knew what we were up to! So the easiest dog in the world. If we had been in a terraced house in a city with less opportunity to exercise and work my dog he would have been a nightmare.

Spaniels need to be busy, they need to use their natural instinct and their brain to be happy content and then are the easiest dogs ever.

A good resource to help you might be Kim Bropheyy Meet your dog. A fab book that looks at the requirement by breed of what a dog needs. It helps to be able to match the dogs needs to your family.

Resource guarding is a bit of a thing with spaniels. We use dogs for work and all our dogs are checked for 5 generations to check that no resource guarding is in the line. This way we have never had an issue. However this is extremey hard to do for people if they do not know the breeders.

I wonder how my life would have turned out if my parents had followed @TheHungryHungryLandsharks advice and not let us have dogs as children....I guess my profession would have been different. I have children and we have always had dogs- we treat both children and dogs with respect and have never had an issue.

I had a working cocker and two children under three - not my finest moment as a parent but they grew up and learned together and it really was the most beautiful experience. She was the perfect companion and so accommodating of two young children! As they got older together they were all inseparable, full of high energy fun and love in equal measure. I was advised not to get a lab as they can prove tricky to raise and more unpredictable with younger kids. Since the sad passing of our beloved Daisy we’ve fostered many spaniels and I can hand on heart say they are all so loving and very trainable. I’ve taken in one lab - never again, a nine month bull in a China shop.. 🥴 didn’t listen to a word I said!

@Molleeeee resource guarding isn't genetic (no matter what reddit says and if you actually read all the articles on animal welfare/raising robust puppies etc, they actually refer to resource guarding from wolves being an inherited behaviour in most dogs, which is very different OR even worse they refer to things like 'dominance' theory and anyone taking any advice from people who believe in dominance theory needs to give their head a very good wobble).

Behavioural issues are almost always nurture over nature. Some puppies might display that behaviour at a young age, but that's down to bad breeding (breeder not ensuring they have enough food, enough time with toys, not handling the dominant 'personality' in the litter and letting them steal things too often from the others or even the mother not teaching the puppies manners). And some breeds are worse than others but that's because of their history and purpose rather than genetic in that line.

I always say this: You can fuck up a well bred dog, you can't unfuck a badly bred one. Why? Because as much as genetics are important...the breeder is the most important thing. Resource Guarding isn't PRA or dysplasia or heart murmurs or even cancer. It's a learned behaviour. Just like being nervous or prone to separation anxiety. Nurture. Over. Nature.

You also can't 'check' five generations back for behavioural issues. Well, you could ask people...but there's no guarantee they're not lying, unlike health testing which can't be faked. And, more importantly, any dogs they've bred from could have had puppies that are prone to it. Just because the dogs in that direct pedigree that they have aren't, doesn't mean others are (again, back to my nurture over nature point).

I could say 'none of the dogs my family have bred for 50 years have had resource guarding tendencies' (because none of the bitches we've kept have displayed that behaviour) but that doesn't mean anything. Statistically, with over 20 litters in 50 years and over 200 puppies...we probably do have resource guarding in the line somewhere.

No one can speak of any certainty when it comes to behavioural issues and genetics. So, long and the short of it: resource guarding is not genetic (other than certain breeds being more likely than others) and you absolutely cannot 'test' for it. Please don't spread such terrible disinformation.

Great your kids treat the dogs with respect. Statistically, most don't. Which is why Dogs Trust recently reported that roughly 90% of all bites on children are done by dogs in the family home.

Edit: for anyone interested - AKC - Breed & Behaviour. Dog breed effects behavioural issues (obviously... a GSD is bred to guard, a retriever to retrieve, it's hardly the stuff of PhD thesis). The 'studies' done to show links into specific lines and behavioural issues also highlight that 'environmental factors (the home, the breeder etc) played a massive part. Unsurprising, really.

They aren't hugely bright so can be harder to train - often not bothered about food. I find them bonkers and hilarious because they are a bit dim, but they are a lot of work. They get very muddy and retain it on long wet walks, chew a lot if bored and can be quite vocal. You need to factor in grooming so they don't get matted and look like they have dreadlocks and get ear infections which they are prone to.

Feel like I need to caveat that as I have had collies and labs and in comparison they aren't as bright, in my experience. Cavalier King Charles was one of the daftest things I ever met, but working cockers are more switched on.

Resource guarding and also separation anxiety are not technically genetic however the epigenetic effect will impact on dogs. Hence why many national and international working dogs lines that are bred specifically for their role in detection are checked for both of these behaviours. I will tell them however to check out your comments!

We can and do check 5 generations of dogs. As I said hard to do for most people but our dogs bred specifically for a job are monitored throughout.

Children and dog bites and coming to the conclusion that due to this no household with children have dogs is just unrealistic. Education is important. The Dogs Trust gives advice for people to follow not ban dogs and children.

We dont ban men despite them carrying out violence on women.

But as usual the thread has turned into@TheHungryHungryLandsharks views must be followed thread and noone can have a dog....

@Molleeeee you're being a bit hyperbolic.

And I have never said no children and dogs. Just good breeders don't sell dogs to families with very young children. Reading my posts fully would help you, I think.

But...let me get this straight...you agree that genetics do not effect behavioural issues (despite your first post)?
Resource guarding and also separation anxiety are not technically genetic however the epigenetic effect will impact on dogs
('Epigenetic' being the study of environmental factors and genetics...so literally what I said about it not being genetic, and it being a matter of nurture, for anyone reading this and wondering).

But then you also claim:
Hence why many national and international working dogs lines that are bred specifically for their role in detection are checked for both of these behaviours. I will tell them however to check out your comments!

Maybe I'm being a bit slow. But those two things seem to contradict each other. Surely, if you agree that environmental factors are key in determining how a dog will react...it's not just genetic. So why would you check genetics when genetics do not determine behavioural issues and instead it is determined by environmental factors, as you implied in your first sentence?

If you want to argue that genetics are key, then you need to amend your comment implying that environmental factors influence behaviour (because, you know, that would mean you also agree with me...which I am sure you don't want judging by your spiky comments).

I'm not going to debate with you anymore - it seems rather pointless given your spiky comments make it clear that even when we're agreeing on something, like genetics not actually being relevant at all, you still want to disagree with me - and will instead wish you a lovely evening 😃

But, what I will say, is the below was really not necessary. Debate is important, and I strive to have that. If you don't like that, then don't engage with me. There's no need to make sly digs.

But as usual the thread has turned into yours views must be followed thread and noone can have a dog....

Edit Ohhhh, I remember you now! From the thread about the young working line lab in the family with young kids that was showing destructive behaviours, and OP admitted she didn't give her dog enough attention (one walk a day at lunch) and needed help and you said it was normal. You also implied I was a liar about my nephew having SEN and the challenges of having a child with SEN and a puppy. 🤔

I’ve had a dog that resource guarded and now one that doesn’t. Both treated the same. So how does that work?

@Anabolicanna Small distinctions in the way you or the breeder have raised them as well as, even if they share the same parents etc. No dogs are raised or treated 100% the same, no matter how much we might like to think so. Individual personalities. Different breeder. Different breed. There's literally thousands of possible reasons.

Just like raising children. No two children, even twins, turn out exactly the same, (no matter how much genetic material they share). There are actually some really fascinating studies about why twins, who obviously share the same genetic material and broadly grow up in very similar circumstances, end up so different both physically (including in terms of health) and personality wise.

For personality it apparently all comes to micro differences in how the children were raised and their 'choice' when they grew older. Even twins that spent all day together every day for 16+ years grew into very different adults.

For dogs, take two litters from the same parents. Puppies born in summer will have more time outside than puppies born in winter, right, just because it's warmer, right? Seems like a small thing, but the potential consequences are quite significant on i.e. toilet training, which then has wider consequences (being trusted in pubs, in a larger area of the house etc).

Does that make sense? 😊

This. My mum has insanely got a spaniel cross puppy and although she’s very cute she is the most high maintenance dog I’ve even known.

OP, if you have had prior dog experience and are prepared to find the time to train your puppy, you can make a success of having a puppy with young children.

But it is bloody hard work. I've done it twice, working line puppies both times, once when the youngest was a baby and again when 5 or 6 years later. Neither dog had any issues with resource guarding. The DC were always taught to respect the dogs and whatever we did seemed to work.

The hardest thing, always, was carving out the time to work steadily on recall, loose lead walking and anything else. Getting the dogs walked was very rarely the issue, because the DC could come along, or I could do it in the winter drak after DH got home, but finding time when it was just me and the dogs and I wasn't overwhelmed with work/ chores/ school pick-up was the hard bit.

We have a cockerpoo, he was easy to train, very loving and sneaks up for cuddles, relaxed and gentle with children and loves to play with them when encouraged would highly recommend.

I would say it depends on the type of spaniel. I probably wouldn’t go for a springer or working cocker. In my experience, show cockers are less high energy.

I would still be careful which colour you go for.
Solid colours (black and golden) do have a reputation for being more highly strung and tricky than mixed. My father has had many over the years and there has been quite a difference between them. The latest, a solid black dog, is definitely much harder work than the others. Obviously this is just one example, but I was very surprised how different he is.

My springer is a working type and honestly as long as she gets an hour of running through fields like a lunatic she sleeps and chills for the other 23 hours a day. She is the loveliest, most placid, friendly dog in the world. Got her when my kids were 2 and 4. No dog aggression, no human aggression, no separation anxiety, an absolute gem of a dog.

The opposite of this!

Always love the saying labradors are born half trained, spaniels die half trained

We have a boy sprocket he's been lovely. Adores children and now the grandchildren we've had a springer who was my sons shadow. We had a couple of acres he would play outside with the children for hours. They were both working dogs so trained to the whistle and with hand signals which did help with discipline and behaviour

We have a three year old Labrador our third. Again high energy and very loving.

They all chewed shoes, skirting, furniture as puppies 😁😁

It's absolutely true. We've had three of each 🙈😂

Agree.

I grew up with cocker spaniels and they are very loving but they can be needy and you need to be a big fan of brushing them as they really need it every day or two to stay nice. If you like playing with a dog then they are great fun.

We have a 15 year old show cocker. She has been an absolute delight. You do need to put in training, as with any breed, but they enjoy it and are intelligent dogs. They can be clingy though.