Asked about two puppies and feel unfairly judged in replies

[MyMerryHelper]

I have read the replies regarding the 2 puppies I posted earlier, firstly this is a breeder with 3 bitches only 2 of them gave birth 5 days apart, she is not breeding her dogs anymore as they have had 2 litters and that’s all she’s allowing her dogs, she is not running a puppy farm, I have been to see her dogs and they are vet checked regularly along with the puppies who have also been vet checked a couple of times and been vaccinated etc. we regularly see videos and have been in contact since the puppies were born. She’s also been training them. I’m not new to having dogs having had 7 and now being left with one due to losing 6 over the last 5 years. I would never buy from a puppy farm or have puppies whose mum is not around to see either. I asked a simple question, not for an inquisition!

There are no decent breeders of cockapoos and even if there was, no decent breeder would sell you two puppies the same age because of the risks of littermate syndrome. I think you and the breeder were judged pretty fairly, having read the comments.

do not get two puppies close in age, that is a terrible idea. Puppies do not have to be actual litter mates in order to be affected by littermate syndrome

So why have you started another thread?

Vet checked is not Heath checked.

agree with @Kalimeras

I haven't seen your other thread but that is the clearest example of a puppy farm there could be.

No breeder who isn’t commercially breeding would have two litters so close together. It is a puppy farmer.
Getting two puppies very close in age makes it incredibly hard work. They need training and feeding and playing with separately. Walking separately etc. ideally two people each taking on full care of one pup. Littermate syndrome is real and can end in disaster.

Don't fuckaround with littermate syndrome

There is never a good reason to get two puppies at the same time, its harder work and is much more likely to end up in bad things for you and the dogs. Decent breeders know this and wouldn't place their dogs at risk like this

Ignoring the ethics of breeding a Cockerpoo and that its a sign of a dodgy breeder in its self

You've got no idea how many times those dogs have bred or how many times they will be bred. Its all being told to you with no official records by someone who os literally selling you something so motivated to lie

Most people with dodgy breeders are told some sort of similar lie about its an accidental litter/there only litter or the last one. Its only when they see them re advertised later they know its a lie

But what you were proposing, and that the breeder had no issue with it, at the very least made you dangerously inexperienced and the breeder reckless and cynical. I don’t think the replies were at all unfair.

Absolutely is a puppy farm op. I’m not familiar with your other post but how can you not see it’s a farm?

Have you researched anything about littermate syndrome? Genuinely

Dogs dont need to be related to get it. Its also common in cockers. Often pups get along fine in puppy hood but once adolescence and then maturity hits can develop massive issues with each other. I know of three people in my close circle who had this. One managed to keep them but had to rotate them and limit the time together. Two ended up rehoming one, both after a significant injury to a dog and them for getting in the way

At best you can end up with dogs that dont develop their own individual confidence and skill so cant function independently. Being able to do stuff independently is important because if one dies, or even just gets injured and needs to rest, or develops training needs you'll need to take them out individually

What i saw in rescue other than the actual horrendous fights was also a combo of things. People assuming because there is 2 that they will need less, so sometimes people got two when they shouldn't have got 1 so had behaviour issues from boredom and lack of training. Then there was people who had enough time for 1 but got two so each dog got half the attention it should.

Each dog needs to be given the proper individual training time. In this scenario it's common for a more fearful dog to get over looked for example and dragged into situations by its confident brother. Nobody noticed until the dog is reactive.

Think of things like teaching your dogs proper loose lead walking and dog play etiquette. With two you are always accidentally rewarding pulling, saying yes when one pulls because you are talking to the other. Then you cant keep proper eyes on them, so the standard for behaviour is lower. The dogs then become difficult to walk, so get walked less or in a chaotic way which compounds the leash problem and results in an increase in bad behaviour at home. You dont do the things like socialisation because its too hard to manage with two.

Honestly having two puppies at the same time is a real problem and most rescues end up seeing it over and over again

You didn’t have a lot of replies on your last thread but I agree with the posters on that thread. You don’t appear to want to listen to sound advice. You’re wanting to buy two cockapoos from the same breeder with two different litters. You said they were home bred and the breeder (and I use that term loosely) was happy for you to have one from each litter. Why people insist on breeding designer crossbreeds is mind blowing to me (well except they make money). You really need to read into littermate syndrome and the many negative traits cockapoos can have, many suffer from separation anxiety, resource guarding can be an issue, they can be anxious and a lot of them take a shit load of training. It’s almost impossible to know the parents lineage in these crossbreeds, and that’s what they are - a crossbreed. You never know what you’re getting with them and you’re thinking of taking on not just one but 2 puppies?

My DH has trained dogs for many years in the forces, we have collies (sheep dogs), labs and malinois. We wouldn’t touch a cockerpoo with a barge pole but if you want to ignore all the advice you’ve been given on here then crack on.

As someone else said vet checked doesn’t mean health checked. You’ve posted 2 threads now so you’re going to do what you want anyway.

No good breeder would EVER sell two puppies to the same family at the same time.

And no good breeder has two litters in a year, let alone two at the same time.

If you want to be naive and support animal abuse and terrible breeding practices, then crack on but don’t expect people not to call you out on it. This is Doghouse, not the ‘puppy farmers support network.’

If you’ve had dogs before you should know the basics about ethical breeding. Make as many threads as you want about this, you’ll get the same replies.

Yes you were judged. With damn good reason!
If you were really as experienced as you say, you’d have known it was a catastrophically stupid thing to do. The collective experience of those who answered you in good faith include at least two of us who are industry professionals with decades of experience. We, apparently unlike you,can spot a puppy farmer. Even if by the remotest chance, it was a ‘not quite so awful’ one, it’s still utter madness to get 2 puppies ESPECIALLY two bitches.
But hey, you crack on then 🤷‍♀️

@MyMerryHelper why not get one puppy first and if you find puppy raising a doddle (most people don't!) then get another puppy once the first one has reached adulthood and is well behaved/well trained?

You received very good advice. I hope you pay attention to that advice and won't go ahead with buying 2 puppies.

OP should tell the breeder to bogof

I met a woman with a pair of beautiful black labaradors who were litter mates and to watch them moving around, enjoying the beach, sniffing and playing was like watching one dog. It was fascinating. And sad for the owner who said they were not remotely interested in a relationship with her.

Aside from it being a bad idea generally, cockapoos should have parents who are health tested for PRA (progressive retinal atrophy) as it’s a disease that is particularly prevalent in poodles and cocker spaniels. It causes eventual blindness. A health test is specific DNA testing or other testing on the parent dogs for specific conditions, not a vet check of the puppies. Also FN if being bred with cocker.

Op you can’t do that, take on two. It could be really damaging to the dogs, you’d need to manage both completely separated or their bond will be with each other and not you.

and to be honest this does sound like a breeder who doesn’t know what she’s doing or a puppy farm and she’s lying about the amount of litters. Because otherwise she’d decline two.

i suspect you’ve been given very good advice on your other thread and I really hope for the dogs sake you do not proceed.

@MyMerryHelper Maybe some of the wording is a bit off from some people, but Litter Mate Syndrome shouldbe taken seriously.

Obviously there are ways to prevent this, but it's not always guaranteed. It's time consuming and requires a lot of space.

An experienced, knowledgeable breeder should not re home puppies of similar age together. The risks do outweigh the benefits. However, you are entitled to throw caution into the wind and go ahead if that is what you want. MN is overly cautious when it comes to dogs, but rightly so. These dogs are going to be part if the family for the next 12-15 years. Just make sure you give them the best start in life.

Are we going to get a third thread, Feeling unfairly judged on a thread I posted about being unfairly judged when I asked about two puppies

No need for the 2nd thread...

I’ve got a dog that was puppy farmed. I got her from the RSPCA at eleven months because the people who got her from the puppy farm gave her away. She has some issues which the vet says stem from being taken from her mother too early, things like she is the fussiest eater. She won’t have treats so she can’t be bribed and she’s pretty distrustful of food. Which is massively inconvenient because it took ages and ££££ to find a food she eats and we can’t just buy something else. We have to coax her into eating.

I re read your 1st post and you were given plenty of sound advice.
Not all puppy farms are sheds with sawdust , why is she breeding multiple pups? in my job iv'e heard it all before but never does a breeder say i do it for the money.
Any 'decent'🙄breeder will give you the 3rd degree before selling their pup to you and absolutely no way would they advise buying 2.
I don't know what you want people to say .
I also agree with the vet checks comments -my field , we listen to their hearts, have a look at their teeth alignment, make sure they have nice clean eyes and ears that's about it ,obviously worth doing but doesn't touch some of the specific testing recommended for some breeds.

Suspect she used one stud. This is clearly a puppy farm, just not the stereotypical one the op is thinking of.

no respectable breeder would breed two dogs at the same time,in as all location and none would sell one owner two puppies at the same time, if she remotely cared about the dogs she’d not permit it. She’s in it for the money.

the op is not a responsible owner, if she was. She’d have spent time googling and reading up on the advice she got on the last thread instead of starting another one like a petulant child.