What to actually do about ankle biting

[FoxandDuck]

12wo cockapoo here and, generally, he’s lovely and doing really well but the ankle/trouser biting is ridiculous. I asked our trainer at puppy training but it’s all about positive reinforcement and not letting the situation arise in the first place which I like the idea of but doesn’t seem to bear much resemblance to real life. Just now, I walked through the sitting room where the puppy was calmly chewing on a toy and the next thing I know, he’s hanging onto the back of my jeans. So I can freeze and not respond but how long do I need to stay frozen for? As it was in that situation, the oven pinger was going so I needed to get a move on. Nor could I reach a toy without moving. I did have some treats on me but was told not to reward the puppy for stopping in this sort of situation.
Earlier, DS had tried to run through the house to get his shin pads but that led to a frenzied attack. It’s getting a bit wearing!

Honestly?
This board is very Force Free so my advice isn't going to be popular... But I've raised four puppies into happy, social dogs without being shredded along the way.

I'd prise the puppy off with a firm no, pick him up and put him down at a distance. If he immediately did it again, I'd do the same thing. Third go, he's put out of the room for half a minute, or the other side of a baby gate - just where he can't get to you. If he starts rushing at your ankles the second you open the door, it's an immediate 'No!' If he stops, good, praise him and reinforce his good decision with fuss or a treat (I'd not use play as a reward/reinforcer in this situation as he's probably over-excited already). Otherwise, rinse and repeat: he bites, he's straight back out of the room.

Once he can come back in without making a beeline for you trouser hems, tell him what a good boy he is.

They soon get the message. Make sure that he has plenty of opportunity to rag things that aren't your socks or trousers, and play with him, too (you're probably doing both these things already).

People will tell you that dogs can't 'do or understand a no', but they 100% can. My two (adult dogs) both understand that 'no' means 'stop doing whatever-it-is and look at me'. Usually they're then informed that they can do anything they like off the long list of acceptable options, but that running through that open gate, or chasing that muntjac just down the track, is Right Out.

Good luck. Puppies can be exasperating as well a deeply cute.

@EdithStourton I would describe myself as force free, but I tell my dogs 'no'. And I would also put an over the top bitey puppy behind a stair gate for a time out. Not for 'normal' puppy biting, but the frenzied attacks they can do when over tired.

My 'Force Free Gundog Training' book calls it a negative punishment - the dog loses something it wants/enjoys because of its actions. In his case, puppy loses access to ankles. Or a dog that breaks a stay, doesn't get a treat/ball/to hunt.

@FoxandDuck Some puppies are worse than others for biting unfortunately. My eldest was awful and I truly hated her at times. I could have frozen for an hour and she'd have kept up the attack. She ripped no end of my clothes and my arms were covered in cuts and bruises. Make sure puppy has things to chew on and is getting enough sleep. Use a stair gate for giving time out when he's really bad.

You're in the thick of it right now, but it will come to end in a few months soon.

Thanks for this
Instinctively, we’ve picked him up a couple of times and said “no” quite loudly but I think we’ll make that more systematic. I’m also going to put some thought into where we can put a “time out” zone. Open plan living has a lot going for it other than when you have a puppy! Some areas are already closed off but they’re the areas I definitely don’t want him in. Obviously I don’t want to put him in his crate as punishment. I don’t think I want to tether him either as we’re tending to use that as a tool when he’s awake and we’re emptying the dishwasher, making packed lunches etc and it’s easier without his involvement.
He’s got a whole variety of chew toys, frozen tea towels and things (and hers access to these for the brief periods he’s tethered) and we’re being militant about him getting enough sleep as it’s such a relief when he’s asleep! That said, whilst he’s perfectly happy to go into his crate and lie and rest, when I check in on him on the puppy cam, he’s not actually sleep. I’m not sure I can actually force him to go to sleep though!

@SpanielsGalore I've definitely been told off on this board for using 'no'. Hence the hard-hat donning prior to posting.

OP, I hope you can sort out the biting.

Dogs don’t understand the word no. A loud voice may interrupt the behaviour but won’t stop the dog going back to it. Keep a toy on you and throw it to distract from your legs? Make sure pup gets enough sleep and time settled to ensure it isn’t over stimulated.

I was walking round in wellies at home during that stage 😅🙄 while wondering if I’d bought a shark not a puppy!! A freeze & no was a lot easier to do because it wasn’t actually hurting!!

@Wolfiefan dogs don't understand the meaning of ANY words unless we attach a meaning to them.

If you say 'no' consistently when removing a dog from a situation or stopping it doing something, it will learn. Hence with my two, if I say or shout 'no', 99% of the time they'll stop and look at me. It's very useful and saves a lot of recalls - you can do all of these things (sniff in the hedge, put yourself at heel, trot ahead, go and paddle in the ditch, beg me for the ball, dig in the verge, whatever) - but not whatever it is you're doing (or are about to do) just now.

They also know 'yes!' (you've done the right thing and are about to get a treat), 'good' (carry on doing that), 'heel' (walk next to me), 'get on' (start hunting) and sundry others, plus some hand and whistle signals.

Far better and more effective to tell a dog what you do want it to do.

I told my puppy now dog no I also removed him from situations where he was hanging off ankles or shoes or wherever, i also used a crate where he could go for a "nap" puppies need to slepp loads, so when mine was a pain like that i would just nap him,

Yes i agree but sometimes you have to reinforce that especially puppies who are over stimulated redirection sometimes doesn't work.

Sometimes 'no' is very much clearer. The dog knows: anything but this. If it would be unclear, I clarify.

It doesn't damage the dog, it saves on recalls or heels - so maximising the dog's freedom of choice when off-lead - and it's a very useful word to have in your armoury.

The problem with picking up a puppy when it is in full on frenzy bitey mode is as they get bigger the puppy will dance around making it really hard for you to pick them up.

They will already be overaroused hence the bitey attack you bend down to pick them up to put them in time out, they dance away, come back in for the bite, you move towards them they chase away. Your over aroused puppy is now in meltdown and you are chasing the puppy around.

I tend to always have a tug toy on me or treats. Puppy is biting you - either distract onto a toy, with a "this one" cue. Biting stops and puppy is now tugging on appropriate toy. Or ask for a "get it" and throw the treats away from you.

You are then rewarding the "get it"and not the biting.

If you dont have toy or treat on you- if you have alread introduced the get it or this one cue the puppy will pause for a mini secong long enough for you to run to get treats or a toy.

Then put treats in the area you want them to be in eg crate, chill out area to move the puppy there to have a sleep.

The biting stage is usually self limiting and does disappear as the puppy gets bigger and teeth settle in so management is as good as training. Then you can move onto the humpy stage 😀

I think it depends on the situation.

Last week DS was visiting and my youngest kept jumping up at him. He kept saying 'No' and dog was ignoring him. So in that case it was ineffective. DS told her to sit and she did it.

In training classes, if DDog breaks a 'stay', she'll be told 'no' or 'a a' so she knows she's done something wrong and then be told to go back to the spot. Often the negative marker results in her sitting back down without further need for instruction.

I personally dont use no. I would work on cues that give my dog something specific to do.

So if I want them to stop doing something as an adult dog I would just ask them to do something else. Dog stealing food, recall. Dog about to jump in muddy puddle ask for a sit for example.

Same way I dont teach a leave it - just ask the dog to do something else. Dog about to eat pill I have dropped on the floor ask for a stop (gundogs) or down (collies)

I do have a positive interrupter. This is a noise I make and the dogs always get rewarded when they hear it. So opposite of an aahaaa noise people make. Dogs doing something I dont want them to do eating plants for example make positive interrupter noise dogs get a treat. Dogs stop eating plants to get treat.

I have an 8 week old puppy at the moment who learnt this in about 5 mins on the first day they came to us!

My daily experience would disagree.

My dog absolutely understands the words "No" and "Uh-Uh!!"

she understands them to mean stop what you were doing/about to do.

Perhaps your dog is different. But mine gets it.

I was going out of my mind with my puppy (first timer) and thank god I came across a video of a gun dog trainer (Tom Cantwell) who said "Hey it's ok to tell your dog no" . From there, everything became easier and clearer for both of us.

ETA - by asking the dog to do some other thing rather than stop The Bad Thing, it never leans The Bad Thing is not ok and to never do it. It's just distracting the dog with a different task.

As I say all dogs are different, but the trendy advice was not working for me and mine!

In training classes, if DDog breaks a 'stay', she'll be told 'no' or 'a a' so she knows she's done something wrong and then be told to go back to the spot. Often the negative marker results in her sitting back down without further need for instruction.

In this situation I would look at the rate of reinforcment and increase the reinforcement and decrease the duration. Working on shorter stays would increase the value of the release cue which means the puppy will sit staying for longer.

Problem with (in my view) the dreaded "a a" is what people actually aa. Dog is looking out the window and breaks stay. AA is that for looking out the window or breaking stay? Dog goes towards something is aa to stop them moving forward or to make them stay. It is a very grey cue for a dog. They tend to learn to ignore the AA over time.

@dennydan For me, the 'a a' is to stop the move forward and lets her know it's not what she should be doing. She's then either led back or verbally told to go back to the spot and told to sit, stay. Obviously I can't be sure dog sees it the same way, but it's working for us at the minute.

If she does break the stay, I decrease the time/distance on the next one and we'll try to build back up again.

I don't do the scruffing back to position or giving them a shake or whatever other aversive method is suggested for telling the dog off.

I'm with all those who use the word "No".
I've raised four puppies into happy,
well-balanced, well-trained dogs and I have never been bitten on the ankles. Not once. Why? Because I am firmly of the opinion that a puppy (or adult dog) should not be allowed to puppy bite or mouthe a human being. I would have delivered a sharp "No" the first time it happened, followed by lots of praise for stopping. I am incredulous that you have been advised to stand and freeze. Puppies are not mind readers. How is the puppy meant to know that biting ankles is wrong?

I would argue that the word "No" - delivered in a short, harsh tone and meaning "stop what you are doing immediately" - is the most important command a puppy can learn. It is quickly balanced out by generous praise when the puppy or adult dog obeys this command.

Furthermore, allowing any type of behaviour without a verbal correction is tantamount to giving your permission to it. Unfortunately, your puppy now thinks this is acceptable. However, he is only 12 weeks old and I would start today with "No". You'll need to be persistent and have everyone in the household doing the same thing.

I would also, as I've done with all my pups from week one, teach him to fetch and retrieve and spend a couple of brief periods a day (10 mins) playing this game. He may not retrieve immediately, that's fine, but the action of chasing and picking up a Kong, ball or ragger will keep his mouth and his brain busy. Puppies have a lot of mental energy and this will give him a "job" to do, in addition to his obedience training.

Looking back over the lives of my dogs including my remaining dog, obeying the word "No" has saved my dogs on several occasions from potential danger. On our country walks over the years we've come across an escaped goat, an escaped Shetland pony and a very aggressive feral cat. My dogs have never been aggressive towards other animals but "No" in these instances, meaning "do not approach", followed by the recall command, kept them safe.

Good luck!

I try distraction with my 11 week old, but when she starts to get into the frenzied biting lunging she gets put in her crate. Not as a punishment, more as she is so tired and needs to sleep. It's very tiring though. She's only been here a week but it feels like it's been a month. Roll on two weeks when she can go out for walks

Nothing wrong with introducing a No or Stop to actually get your puppy to look at you and stop that unwanted behaviour they are doing.

It always amuses me when people assert that a dog cannot be taught to understand the word no.

Then proceed to instruct people to teach them verbally many many different commands plus shape behaviour through action and consequence with no sense of irony

A few weeks ago I was wearing wellies in the house because I was so sick of the ankle attacks. I say no because it's instinctive to say it! And I say it in a no-nonsense tone because I'm fecking annoyed. Puppy gets it - he looks up at me like 'but this is such a great game, why are you cross?' It sinks in after a while.

Anyway, I figured out that if he was lunging at ankles he either needed a poo or a sleep. So I would stride to the garden or crate in my wellies and deposit him in whichever seemed appropriate. He's sixteen weeks now and my ankles have gone unmolested for some time - he got the message that I don't think it's fun.

I think, OP, if he's lying down in the crate then he is resting. Mine will always open his eyes if he senses us peering in at him, or sit up if he hears us and thinks he might be getting a fuss. He settles back down if we ignore. They need so much sleep, and the crate isn't a punishment if you're putting them in because they're tired (even though it feels like it because a tired puppy is always being an absolute dickhead). More sleep is pretty much always the answer to every problem we've had so far!

Also, if you're still stuck indoors waiting for the all-clear on vaccinations, things get a million times better once you can get out on walks. Lots of their annoying bitey energy gets used up more positively then! I am still very much looking forward to getting out of the puppy stage, but it does get better - I think around 11 weeks was the absolute nadir and I was crying all the time. Now I'm much happier and it's all easier than it was.

Sorry - I thought I’d come back to this thread a couple of days ago but had actually posted on the new puppies thread.
I am so glad I posted and listened to you as we went from repeat attacks to nothing in about 48 hours! Each time he bit my ankles, I picked him up by the armpits, said a sharp “no”, put him behind a glass internal door and stood with my back to him (and my arms folded and a stern look on my face but obviously he couldn’t see that!). The first time it happened, he obviously thought this was a new fun part of the game and so relaunched his attack as soon as I opened the door but, on about the fourth repetition of me standing with my back to him, he came back in, went towards my ankle and then charged off to get a chew toy. And then we were quickly down to only needing three repeats and then two. I first posted on Sunday and began to do this that evening. Yesterday, Wednesday, he didn’t bite the DC at all, bit me once in the garden as if to test whether I’d bother carrying him all the way inside to his time out zone and bit DH once quite late in the evening, either because he was too tired or if he wanted to test whether soft-touch DH would bother to do anything about it. On each of those occasions, it was one ten second spell in the time out zone and that was it. Today, he met some cows on his walk (and had his first taste of cow pat) and I had a quick nip when we got home but that was it. I have a feeling that, if we’d stuck with the freeze approach, I would be bruised, battered & miserable by now. So thank you!

Wonderful! I'm so pleased it worked. Once they stop launching at you teeth first, it makes them so much nicer to play with, too - so they benefit with more games and approval from you.

Clap when you say no. Not sure this has been mentioned but works. Then, when they're older, you only have to clap and they'll respond, normally.