Help choosing breed after losing our CKCS

[knittymcknitface]

A month ago we lost our beloved Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. He was part of our family for almost thirteen years and I miss him dearly. Although we're not ready for another dog just yet, I know that I would like another eventually and I realise that good breeders often have waiting lists etc. so I've been looking into different breeds. I'm wary of getting another CKCS due to the health issues, even though ours was pretty perfect for us temperament wise (they are such sweet dogs).

I'm self employed and work from home full time. Two kids aged 12 and 15. I'd like a small/medium sized dog that's affectionate (our CKCS was laid by my side always), happy with an hour's exercise a day but also happy to go on longer walks too. So far I've been thinking of a whippet (but I'm worried about letting one off lead due to their prey drive), and a toy or miniature poodle.

I wondered if anyone had any thoughts or suggestions?

Bichon frise? Perfect for wanting a small affectionate dog.

I know people do rate poodles but I’d be slightly put off by their higher rates of separation anxiety

My DD who works from home has a toy poodle and she is sweetest, friendliest, loveliest little dog. She behaves impeccably when out and about and doesn't want or need long walks. She is practically perfect in every way - except she won't be left by herself without becoming distressed.

There's a CKCS breeder in North Norfolk who crossed her line with labradors about 3-4 generations ago. She is incredibly highly regarded (although I can't for the life of me remember her name) as she did so much research prior to doing it that her dogs are incredibly robust and healthy. I'm usually very anti mixing in other breeds given you can't be sure what you'll get - it's genetic bingo, which is usually a bad idea - but she did it incredibly carefully. It might be worth getting in touch with breeders in that area, if you're local or willing to travel, and seeing if you can pin her down? I met one of her dogs about 18 months ago and it was the most robust CKCS I have ever met - kept up with my retrievers easily.

Alternatively, given your last dog lived for 13 years (and thus was presumably quite healthy?) why not re-use the breeder you used before?

Border Terrier or Toy Poodle are lovely dogs. Both with their downsides, but every breed has them - you just what to figure out what your 'red lines' are. SA, which poodles are prone to, wouldn't bother me as my dogs are never left home alone really...

I think a toy or miniature poodle would suit you very well, I have an Italian greyhound x whippet & she can be a bit full on in the park, she's a bit obsessed with other dogs if they are running so training is an on-going issue. She is adorable & has fur like velvet & is very affectionate & beautiful and I'm a bit obsessed with her...so overall for your situation I'd go toy/mini poodle. 😊

I have a miniature poodle puppy and he is wonderful! He’s really calm and cuddly and loves people so much. He doesn’t like being left on his own, which has been quite restrictive, but is something we are currently working on.

What does a Cavalier KC crossed with a Lab look like? I have had both!

I wouldnt ever take a dog with seperation issues. You would really limit yourself if you did. Our old Lab could be left for ages ocassionally.

Our first family dog was a tibetan terrier that we rescued, he was 8. He was the sweetest loveliest boy, and very good with our then young children. He loved a warm bed to sleep in, and loved his walks but didn't mither you if it was pouring with rain. We had him until he was 12 and whilst we have working cockers now I would love to have a TT from a puppy. You don't see many of them either which is quite nice (every second dog in our village is a cockapoo )

@TheHungryHungryLandsharksBorder Terriers are my perfect breed. I have 2 but they’re not an affectionate breed. Pleased to see me when I come in but definitely not a cuddly breed. I’d still have another one though!

@CrowsInMyGarden the (only?) downside of the breed!!

At least that's a bit less inconvenient than, say, the drool you'd get with a Saint Bernard which would be incredibly affection but may accidentally drown you. 😂Or a Golden Retriever which may accidentally smother you in fur when it snuggles you (she says, currently on her 3rd sticky lint roller of the week due to the fur of her chosen breed)...

I can 2nd a Tibetan Terrier. Better than a Poodle or pooX.
They would fit your circumstances, but whilst they can be incredibly sweet, they can be equally as cheeky. They are definitely the opposite to a Whippet in terms of temperament & looks.

Ah I can't imagine a CKCS crossed with a Labrador 😊Our boy was actually from Norfolk - his mum was Pascavale and his dad Khatibi (these prefixes seem to pop up a lot in CKCS pedigrees). He was exceptionally healthy and we never really had a problem with him until Christmas time. I suppose I'm worried that we just got very lucky with him. I'm not actually in touch with his breeder anymore - I'm not sure she still breeds as her website has disappeared and she's no longer on Champdogs.

Thank you everyone for your recommendations - I've got some new breeds to have a look into now. I'm going to try and visit some breeders of toy and mini poodles too if possible to try and get a better feel for them and ask questions. I'd say someone is home around 95% of the time so I'm not too worried about SA, although it's definitely something I'd work on. My next door neighbour has a small poodle type dog (I can't tell if it's a cross or not) and it looks like a lovely, sweet thing but it barks non stop every time she goes out. Our boy was fine being left alone. He was just perfect really. 💕

Miniature schnauzer

Im so sorry for your loss. I know that pain well. We adore French bulldogs - get from a reputable breeder with a good bill of health - but ours is perfection xx

I would go for a Cavapoo - many are cavalier in nature, some look cavalier, some look poodle-y.

Happy to recommend my breeder who is based in Devon.

Skye terrier
glen of Imal terrier
sheltie
sussex spaniel
dande dinmont

My granny used to breed and sell Sheltie puppies. She did so from the 1950s to mid 80s. I loved them, although they did shed lots. I looked them up a while ago on Champdogs just wondering how much she'd earn now, and breeders were hard to get hold of, and there was one litter of puppies available in Hungary.

Just be aware that the grooming and coat care needs of any of the poodles opand poodle crosses are much more intensive than a cav's. Have you looked at a Havanese? very sweet and similar exercise and grooming needs to a cav.

Couldn't agree more! Ours is perfect.

I'd suggest a beagle. We have our girl who is rising 13 from Beagle Welfare. Beagles are smashing dogs, ours is very affectionate, doesn't need too much walking, great with children and have a lovely disposition. Prepare for the hair though! They do tend to shed.

Just don't.

If you need convincing, this is an interesting article. As a (rescue) doodle owner I fully agree.

www.rvc.ac.uk/research/facilities-and-resources/animal-welfare-science-and-ethics/news/new-rvc-study-challenges-common-beliefs-on-desirable-behaviours-in-designer-doodle-crossbreeds?fbclid=Iwb21leAQp-ptjbGNrBCn6Q2V4dG4DYWVtAjExAHNydGMGYXBwX2lkDDM1MDY4NTUzMTcyOAABHpsXRiu71fupOiQgBkuzr599vVmOozVwW8nAp79nSNuubiA3tRnoD5_y7qYn_aem_1RSF0dTB7Dv79b4ltFrv4Q

I have read the study and the reviews by Julie Naismith.

‘The team, led by researchers at the Royal Veterinary College’ - if you automatically choose doodles who have been to the vet; you have self-selected a group who may be unwell/have other problems. Many of the dogs were bought in the pandemic- some were bought from unlicensed, non-ethical breeders seeking to make a profit. These breeders may not have tested for parental health, wellbeing, temperament or educated the puppies with Puppy Culture or a planned stimulation/socialisation programme.

There were a lot of first time owners in the pool as well - they may have seen usual dog behaviour as problematic and used positive only reinforcement (like the dog version of gentle parenting) to train their dogs. Many of the first time owners surveyed had pandemic puppies and didn’t have proper access to classes/supervision/socialisation that post-pandemic owners did. I wouldn’t use the survey as a stick to beat doodles with - a lot of it is down to the unethical breeders and the owners. OP is clearly a dog lover and can train/manage a dog to their own standards. I’m sure that a carefully bred Cavapoo is not beyond them if daily brushing and 6 weekly-grooming is a commitment that they want to take on.

From the Guardian - Daniel Mills, a professor of veterinary behavioural medicine at the University of Lincoln, who was not involved in the study, said the research was a much-needed piece of work, but emphasised the results did not mean crossbreeds were genetically more likely to show problem behaviours.

“Behaviour is always the product of the interaction of genes with the environment, and looking for simple causes in one or the other is doomed to failure,” he said.

However, he noted that the study suggested cultural factors might be important. These included differences in owners’ behaviour between different breeds, such as the type of training provided, which are likely linked to the owners’ expectations and experience.

“Obviously more studies are needed and determining cause in a study like this is not possible, but it would be useful to track animals and their owners across time to tease out the main influences for the effects seen,” Mills said.

@MulberryFresser sorry, but as someone who has been approached (repeatedly) by these 'doodle' breeders in their nasty money-grabbing attempts to use my boy as a stud for Golden-Doodles. I think they are beyond the lowest of the low. Most of them don't even bother to ask if my dog is health tested and those that do don't even ask about heart scores (essential for any Golden Retriever breeding these days). It's clear they know next to nothing about the dog breeds they are splicing together.

There have been multiple articles, including on the BBC just this week, about how unethically these dogs are bred and the chronic personality/ behavioural/ health defects they are riddled with. It is widely accepted in the pedigree (as in those of us who breed our dogs) and veterinary community that these dogs are not healthier. The best studs and dams of the respective pedigrees are not used in breeding these dogs.

There is a huge difference between carefully selected a dog from a particular line, as the Cavalier breeder in Norfolk did, to help resolve a significant breed issue, and breeding for greed - which is what doodle owners predominately breed for.

Out of interest - and obviously they might not be the breeder you'd recommend - I googled 'cavapoo breeders, devon' and the first 4 hits were puppy farms. Not exactly a glowing endorsement for them.

Separately, Julie Naismith is not really someone I would take advice from when it comes to dog breeding. She doesn't know anything about dog breeding. She exclusively deals in SA. That's like me giving advice on Iran/Israel because I once spent two months in Iraq.

@MulberryFresser - there lies the problem. Unethical breeders chucking out puppies to unsuspecting buyers.

So you have a combination of poor breeding stock, first time / unexperienced dog owners and no support from the breeder. If the poor breeding stock already has a disposition for SA or nervousness then the puppy is more likely to be affected. If this puppy is sold to someone who has no experience with SA or nervous dogs then the puppy will most likely have a poor start in life. The owner will probably try other things first before contacting their vet. This can be the breeder, then youtube or Facebook pages with little or no success as advicecan be conflicting. The volume of these poorly bread dogs presented in veterinary practice lead to the study. We do not have similar issues with other popular dog breeds like Labrador, Poodle or Golden Retriever. My question is Why?