Fading puppy syndrome

[TheEveningReport]

I’m looking at a litter from a reputable breeder. Well researched, checked and recommended by a Facebook group who ‘vet’ breeders. Excellent health scores and lineage etc. but one of the puppies has died from fading puppy syndrome. The puppies are about a week old. Should I beware of getting a puppy from this litter or does this just sometimes happen?

It can happen.

I’d want to know more about the steps taken before I commented or provided a view tbh. For example, where is the breeder sleeping right now? How old is the dam? Who else lives in the household (other dogs, children etc).

Sometimes you can do everything right and still lose a puppy. Sometimes it’s down to the breeder or the dam.

FWIW, I have a very low view of these ‘Facebook groups.’ I’m not recommended by the one for my breed…because I refuse to sell to families with children and that makes me a bad breeder (allegedly!!!). And I’ve often seen them recommend puppy farms. Don’t rely on others to vet breeders for you. It may sound like a good idea, but everyone has an agenda.

@TheHungryHungryLandsharks The dam is three, no other children living in the house, just breeder, adult DS and husband. I don’t know about other dogs. I will ask these questions. Very helpful post thank you.

I’ve checked the damn and the sire on the kennel club and all of their health checks have been completed and were in or below the expected and good ranges for the breed.

Interesting regarding the Facebook group. I haven’t solely relied on their recommendations. I’ve more used it as a filter. Out of interest, why don’t you sell your puppies to families with children? I have children myself so I’m curious as to your reasons and if they’d be pertinent to my situation.

@TheEveningReport happy to help! The problem with FPS is it could literally be anything. And even if the breeder catches it in time, you can't always solve what's wrong with the puppy as it's often multiple things. It's particularly hard if it's actually the puppy that is the 'problem' (i.e. genetic) - sometimes it's things like the dam not having enough milk and the breeder not catching it in time, or it being too cold or too hot. So it is a tricky one and doesn't necessarily mean the breeder is at fault at all.

FWIW, 3 is a good age for a litter (assuming it's the dogs first) as almost all breeds have hit physical and emotional maturity by then.

Where the breeder sleeps is important to me simply because all the good breeders I know sleep by the whelping box for at least the first 4-5 weeks, if not longer. That's to ensure the puppies always have someone on hand should they need anything and also to keep an eye on the dam (not only for her own health, which is incredibly important but also to protect the puppies if she 'snaps' - stressed dam's can kill their puppies, so supervision is always important). Even so, it doesn't mean we always catch things but it does give us better odds of catching it in time.

On children, I should have clarified! I don't sell to families with children under 10 (or with frequent 'young' visitors) for two reasons;

• I also do rescuing for my breed (Golden Retrievers) and about 95% of the dogs we get in are being re-homed because of bites on children. Almost always provoked (child not being supervised, dog being tormented and eventually 'snapping') but it's not a position I would want to put my puppies in.
• I've also raised children around puppies (I had two under 5 at one point + a litter) and even when the litter had gone...it was bloody awful trying to manage two young children and a puppy. And when DDs were 7 and 10 and I had a litter, it was a nightmare - even knowing as much as they did about dogs, and being carefully around them, I'd constantly find them about to do stupid things. My youngest just entered secondary, and it's night and day in terms of how they reacted around the last litter about 8 months ago.

I would stress that good breeders do sell to people with young children (although I do question the sensibility of children younger than 8ish for particular breeds such as particularly working dogs or gun dogs). With me it's just personal preference, which is why the facebook group don't like me as they think I'm unreasonable in my stringent criteria - which to some I probably am, but I absolutely stand by my choices.

So my overall advice would be to gently (and I say gently as if the breeder is a good 'un and genuinely loves her dogs, she'll be devastated by what happened) ask what happened and if she knows what caused it and go from there. Let me know how it goes! This will sound so patronising, but I do love it when people genuinely want to 'get it right' with buying a puppy and make sure it's the right fit from the right breeder.

Sorry that turned into quite an essay...

@TheHungryHungryLandsharks Thank you for the detailed reply, it gave me so much to think about: another puppy died, and that meant there weren’t enough for those who had been accepted as future owners so I pulled out. I have a 7 and 4 yo and your reply made me really consider the reality of life with a puppy and two small children. I still desperately want one, but I think I need to wait until they are older and at least both in school.

We’d be getting a golden retriever, so you were the perfect person the respond!

@TheEveningReport Another puppy? That's really sad. I'm sorry you had to pull out, but possibly for the best - if you're anything like me (and most puppy owners) you'd have been worrying something might happen to whichever puppy you did get.

Golden Retrievers are absolutely incredibly dogs and so wonderfully goofy and loyal. But they are strong and boisterous and because mentally they're really not mature until at least 2 but closer to 3, they can be quite a handful with young children.

A quick plea, when you do eventually take the step please try and make the dam/sire have been heart tested. I know everyone knows about Elbows/Hips/Eyes/Skin, but the heart test is important. There's no 'official' heart test that's offered, but excellent breeders will have had their dogs examined by a cardiologist regardless. It's not a mandatory Kennel Club test so a dam/sire will show as 'fully health tested' even if they haven't had the test done. But if the dog does suffer from a heart issue then the outcome can be catastrophic (sudden death).

It can be really hard to find a breeder who does the test, so it's not the end of the world if you can't find a dam/sire who have had the tests done, but even if one has had the tests done that's something (the main issues are hereditary, so at least with one parent tested you can be a bit more confident). 😊

Best of luck with your search when you start looking again!

Sorry to hear that another puppy died. I think to lose two is quite unusual.

We have a golden. Like @TheHungryHungryLandsharks always says, the first 2, and probably 3 years are very, very hard.
I genuinely don’t know why they are the breed that is constantly recommended for a young family… my guy is older now, so a lazy slob, and a loyal, gentle, beautiful temperament… but he almost broke me in the beginning. He was absolutely not suitable to young children, especially given his size.
He was not easy to train, he was stubborn, boisterous, wild. I’m not sure if that’s typical of the breed or not.

However, I think if you’re prepared for that, and you’re a responsible owner and parent (which you seem to be), I wouldn’t let that stop you. Just, be prepared!

Also, look up resource guarding, which is another problem in the breed, and another reason why they aren’t suited to young children

It is really sad about the puppies, poor little babies. It was an unusually large litter. Perhaps that was partly the cause.

@TheToteBagLady That’s interesting, they are always recommended for families but the specifics and intensities of the puppy years is perhaps not as stressed as they could be!

@TheHungryHungryLandsharks thanks for the heads up re the heart test, I will look out for that in the future.

I have considered other breeds also, there is so much to think about. The Cavalier King Charles for example, seem lovely, chill
and friendly dogs but with all the health problems I’d be wary for our sakes but mostly for theirs.

I’ll continue obsessing over it so I hope to be well prepared by the time the kids are old enough!

What on earth is wrong with them having children? We got a puppy last April when my only child was 10 and they a wonderful bond! They’re like brother & sister! Even the breeder commented on how great she is with him. Don’t be so discriminatory without at least looking a bit closer. My daughter adores animals and she’s incredibly protective and caring towards our boy (as am I, of course!)

I highly, highly recommend the Miniature Schnauzer as a family dog. As you can see from my picture, they’re great with children. Like any dog they do get the zoomies once a day and some will bark at the postman or the hoover (mine doesn’t at either thankfully) but they don’t moult/shed any fur whatsoever! They’re also a hypoallergenic breed, too so they can be around anyone who is allergic to dogs.
This is my mum’s late Mini Schnauzer playing with my daughter when she was a baby!

@GardeningMummy I’d imagine that a large number of golden retriever puppies are bought by families, and then returned to the breeder. I can absolutely understand why a responsible breeder won’t home a puppy to a home with children

@GardeningMummy I literally set it out in the below post, which if you had read I did say I don't sell puppies to families with frequent visitors (or resident children) under 10. And, as I also said in that post, at least 95% of the Golden Retrievers we get into our rescue centre have come from situations where they have bit the resident child - most of those bites are, typically, on the face.

But you didn't read my posts properly, and instead decided to an impression of the Fosbury Flop.

The Fosbury what? You’re just talking drivel now. There are plenty of families out there with younger children who may for example have a larger house with space for the animal to separate itself and not feel trapped with whiney, misbehaving kids in a tiny house or the parents could be experienced in that particular breed and know what to expect. All I’m suggesting is that you look at bit closer to each applicants’ circumstances rather than having a blanket rule.

So, if you got your dog when your child was ten, then Hungry would have considered you, as she states she sells them to families with children over ten!

And goldies are big, strong dogs, and boisterous as.puppies, and from personal experience, she struggled with having young kids and goldies, so decided to be a responsible breeder and only sell to families with older kids.

And she clearly states that many breeders of many different breeds do sell to families with younger kids.

Thank goodness there are some responsible, conscientious individuals out there like @TheHungryHungryLandsharks who know what they’re talking about when it comes to getting a dog or puppy.
It’s people who think they know better who end up having serious problems with their dog.