Dog socialising etiquette?

[LabOwner95]

We have 15 month old male Labrador. He's castrated, if that's relevant. He is very fixated on other dogs (friendliness, not aggression) so we are trying to train him to be neutral. When on lead, he lies down for every single dog he sees and can get quite frustrated. Sometimes he meets the other dog, sometimes he doesn't. We don't actively say no to on lead greetings, but we do try to create distance if we can. He isn't ever off lead aside from private hire dog fields. We take him to the park etc on a long line and again, use treats to praise when he looks at us and we deliberately create distance from other dogs to make this easier. He goes to a very small daycare every other week, only for a few hours, to socialise with other dogs. It's run by a professional dog trainer and the groups are very small (3 or 4 dogs only) and very closely supervised. He is off lead with these dogs, as he's already with the pack so his attention is focused on being with them rather than dodging off.

Anyway, I guess it would be good to get some feedback on whether this is a good approach. The long-term goal is to have him neutral around other dogs but polite when he does interact with them, hence the controlled socialisation at daycare (he has this second bit nailed pretty much).

Also, we were invited earlier to have him off lead to play with a dog we met in the park. He was on his long line so I let him off. It was a really positive experience, but I'm now a bit worried that we've undermined our 'neutral' approach!

Honestly, this is not an issue you can fix with written advice on a forum. You need a trainer who can look at the dog, his behaviour and motivations and train you in what to do for neutrality

Just sounds like a normal young dog to me. He'll grow up.

Case. In. Point. 🤷🏻‍♀️

What do you mean?

Following with interest. I have a ten month old working line lab who is the same as yours (the rest of the pups from the same litter are the same as well) so far, I go for not letting him off lead when other dogs are around. On lead, I make him stop and wait for other dogs to walk past us and treat/praise for displaying neutral behaviour (he is actually gotten very good at this and most of the time, a dog can pass us within a few feet and he will look but not try and go over) I cannot walk him past another dog on lead though as he leaps towards them and he’s getting on for 30kgs already 😳

The other thing I’ve been doing is a portion of the walk we do is down a long lane and he’s on an extendable lead. When another dog comes the other way I stop, wait for him to look around at me, praise heavily and he then comes back to me instead of trying to get to the other dog. I still wouldn’t trust him off lead around other dogs though. I tend to walk him off lead in very open spaces so I can see who is about. He’s extremely friendly but submissive and does not read cues from other dogs telling him to back off. I’m hoping with consistent training and maturity we will get to a better place. At least he ignores humans now! He used to jump up at strangers when younger 🤦‍♀️

This is probably going to be a stupid question but is there a reason why you aren’t majorly working on recall? That should be something a dog this age would be working towards by now…..If a dog is never off lead in an open space where there are other people and dogs around how do they practise these skills? Is neutrality around other dogs more important to you rather than friendliness but with appropriate boundaries and good recall around other dogs? Seeing the joy dogs get from playing with other dogs, this does make me sad (but I know there will be very good reasons why some people don’t think the same) it’s a bit like expecting a young child to ignore other kids rather than teaching them to play nicely.

We are practicing recall, that's why we use the longline. At the moment, he would simply run up to every dog we see, which isn't fair on them and also reinforces the behaviour every time he manages to do it. Recall is a really big training focus for us but it needs to be consistent and manageable, hence a longline to prevent him 'failing'.

I would recommend a training class where you will both be trained in how to stay calm around other dogs, and he will get more practice in reading other dogs language.

It is hard with labs ( I have had 2). They are generally extrovert and love meeting dogs and people. They need consistent conditioning to learn how to socialise.

Re the day care - it’s not bad for him , but I think you need to train together , for consistency.

Training classes. Training classes. Training classes. You and the dog attend together. You meet other owners with young/problem dogs. It's great fun.
Your dog will learn how to walk to heel, how to behave on the lead, 'leave it' , stay, recall. Practise everything you've learned during the week and whilst you are out and about.
The dog etiquette in our local area is, if dogs are on the lead you put yours on the lead. We have woods where dogs can run loose. If a dog is off the lead it means it is sociable and you can let your dog off the lead to play. Hope that makes sense.
I taught my dog to sit quietly by my side when he met other dogs, kids, and horses. It took ages to do this, building on what he'd learnt in classes. From a very young age he has been let off the lead to explore. He is a working line lab, he needs to work. He has always been good at recall - carry treats always. He is also very good at 'leave it' probably the most useful command we use.

I wonder though if your expectation of your dog never “ failing “ is part of it ,seeing as they are now 15 mths old, which is on the later side. I know you feel you may be reinforcing bad behaviour but do all dogs have a 100% success rate during training? it also gives you no opportunities to practise and reward good behaviour. It can be very stressful for some dogs when they are on the lead and meet other dogs, the lying down and being submissive may be part of this ( perceived friendliness can actually be fawning behaviour) , which if you are worried about their behaviour and interactions may be creating a negative feedback to your dog about social behaviour whilst on the lead . Have you done any retrieval training as that may be a helpful change of focus.

If he has positive interactions with other dogs why do you want him 'neutral'?. We follow usual etiquette. Our dog is happy and well socialized around other dogs so we follow usual dog etiquette. If a dog approaching is on a lead we put our dog on her lead and don't allow her to approach the other dog. If a dog approaching is off lead we leave our dog off lead. This usually results in a bit of play/chase between the two. Our dog has good recall so if we have any concern we recall her. If the other dog is recalled we instantly put our own dog back on her lead.
Does neutral mean easy to recall? If so I suppose our dog is 'neutral' to other dogs. .
If we stop to chat to other dog owners we play it according to the other dog/owner. Some are happy for their on lead dog to have a mutual sniff and make friends. Some don't want any kind of interaction and that's fine. Could be nervous/a rescue/just had an op etc etc.
I think good training then a watchful but relaxed approach seems to work.

The comment about him just growing out of it

If I may without trying to cause any friction, if the OP’s lab is anything like mine it’s not as simple as just letting them approach other dogs if they’re off lead and putting them back on when other dogs are on lead. If anyone has ever witnessed a fairly big, fairly heavy adolescent lab getting excited then you’ll know what I mean 😂
I tried it that way for a short time, and it made the situation worse for us. In the whole time I have had him, we have only met two dogs that have the same energy as he does. And by energy, I mean vibe as well - as in they want to play and chase and tumble about and are equally matched in weight so the other dog doesn’t get hurt. Every single other dog we have met have been ‘friendly’ as in, they’re not reactive, but they haven’t wanted him in their face and he has been corrected several times by other dogs and doesn’t seem to listen or take it in. He’s either trying to appease them or thinks they’re trying to play. And ‘appease’ to him is now down and try and constantly lick their faces which the majority of dogs we’ve met don’t like!
It’s also not as simple as ‘simply recall them when you see another dog’ - if my dog would recall around other dogs I would feel I’ve got him where I want him! I’m trying to train that in to him now, but his impulse control still needs a lot of work. He gets ‘big’ feelings bless him, he’s a lovely boy but he’s so exciteable and that just causes issues for me, the other dog and the other dog owner.
My dog does get controlled access to friends’
dogs and I am working on calm greetings separately in that context but I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing it with strange dogs. Even friendly, well socialised animals may flip if they have a big, over excited lab up in their face and I don’t want to risk it. I’m hoping some of it will come with maturity too.

Yes, been there, done that.
The good thing about classes is that you meet other owners with exuberant dogs. You can chat about problems. You can watch each others dogs ' fail'. You realise you are not alone.
Everyone will tell you that lab's get better after 12 months. At 12 months they will tell you that lab's will calm down at 2 years. At 2 years you will be told they will be ok when they are 3.
At 4 years they are getting there.
They do get calmer bit by bit. I have no idea why other people's lab's are well behaved. One at training was a perfect gentleman who only lived to please his owner. One is a 3 year old golden retriever. He is still a handful.

Oh, I feel this in my soul—my own young Lab did the exact same "pancake on the pavement" routine every time another dog walked by! Honestly, your overall setup is brilliant; combining distance work on the long line with structured, supervised daycare gives him both focus training and a healthy social outlet. As for that spontaneous off-lead play session, take a deep breath because you definitely haven't ruined all your hard work. One joyful romp isn't going to erase his progress, especially since he's already building a great foundation with your engage-disengage games. The key going forward is just keeping those park playdates as occasional, unexpected surprises rather than a guaranteed routine whenever he spots a buddy. You're balancing his social needs with clear boundaries really thoughtfully, so give yourself—and your teenager pup—a little grace!

It sounds as though you’re doing a lot of the right things. At 15 months he is still an adolescent, and Labradors can be extremely sociable and excitable at that age.
The one thing I would change is the unpredictability of on-lead greetings. If he is sometimes allowed to meet a dog after lying down and becoming frustrated, he may learn that waiting or pulling eventually pays off, rather like a slot machine. I’d make on-lead greetings the exception and reward him for noticing a dog and then moving on with you. Creating enough distance for him to remain calm is sensible; if he won’t take food or respond to you, you’re probably too close.
I wouldn’t worry about the off-lead play undermining anything. Neutrality doesn’t mean never playing with another dog; it means being able to see dogs without assuming he can approach every one. A planned play session, ideally introduced with a release cue such as “go and play”, is quite different from charging over to every dog he sees.
The small, carefully supervised daycare sounds reasonable if he enjoys it and comes away settled rather than completely overstimulated. He doesn’t need lots of dog-to-dog interaction to be properly socialised, though, calmly ignoring other dogs is an important social skill too.
Overall, I’d continue what you’re doing but be more consistent about not greeting unfamiliar dogs while on the lead. His castration is unlikely to be particularly relevant; this sounds much more like adolescent excitement and a frustrated greeter than a hormonal issue.

My 13 month old Smooth collie is the same as this. We’ve worked with 2 trainers and his regular dog walker/ sitter who all have commented that he just looses his ability to be sensible when he sees other dogs having fun. If we go to a private field, he will not go more than 10m in front before waiting to catch up.
However, if we’re in a local nature reserve I keep him on a long line because if he sees another dog (and particularly labs) having fun in the stream with a ball or stick then he HAS to be involved. We’re constantly working on his ‘neutrality’ and recall in these situations but he’s just so unable to not want to have fun in these situations.

He also does the pancake greetings when on the lead, however, we live in quite an urban location so meet lots of dogs on leads and this is something he’s ok with as it’s very regular. We’ve also managed to get to southern France via the Eurotunnel and all the faff involved in that so it’s not all awful. It’s just the playing/ fun FOMO recall that he can’t get over and sometimes that feels huge when we never see any other dogs who are still on long lines.

While I understand some dogs have full recall at this age, some are simply wired in a way that means they are not there yet. My boy couldn’t care less about a ball, sometimes I wish he would be obsessed with one as at least he’d be other dog neutral but I’m sure ball obsession comes with it’s own issues (massively simplifying here). His lack of recall is not for want of trying (and trying, and trying and trying…)!

Does he only mix with the same dogs each week at day care or different dogs?

If a dog is naturally social then it can be really frustrating for them to hardly ever get to socialise and they don't get learn crucial dog social skills like how to approach strange dogs nicely, read body language or take corrections if they're too boisterous. That can all lead to on lead frustration reactivity and them being a bit 'weird' when they do get put in a social situation.

If they get to socialise off lead with different balanced dogs early on they can learn good social skills, get their need for socialising meet and aren't desperate to meet every dog they see so find it easier to be neutral on lead.

Imagine if you were an extrovert that loved meeting new people but only got to chat to the same 3 people once a week and the rest of the time just had to watch potential friends walk on by! How long before you became nervous or awkward about socialising?

Some dogs just aren't that dog social so getting to mix is less important to them.
if your dog seems social, can you find a trainer who does off lead dog social/ play sessions so he can get to practice meeting other suitable dogs?