Doberman as a first dog.

[JamieCannister]

I've always been someone who is no fan of dogs (probably dating back to young childhood, being scared by dobermans at a distance (a few doors down had three of them, who looked very intimidating when standing off lead 30 yards away when you're 5 years old!), an old english sheepdog on his hind legs towering over my pram, and a little yapper next door that would bark aggressively at me from two foot away behing a chain link fence multiple times a day for the best part of a decade!)

Saying that I am reasonably comfortable with them, especially well trained larger dogs (I especially dislike small dogs). When I have a bit of confidence it's well trained I am happy enough petting a rottweiler I've just met.

Anyway, I have stumbled upon a couple of youtube channels and I am falling in love with Dobermans. Or at least I am falling in love with very well trained dobermans - I do not like out of control dogs at all!

Aside from the obvious (all dogs need to be very well trained, not least big ones that can cause real harm, it'll need plenty of exercise and attention) what advice would you give someone considering a doberman as a first dog?

I'm not going to argue with you anymore. You are deliberately missing the point that multiple people have made. Dogs are dogs.

The fact you can even compare a dog - which relies on their human to make medical decisions for them for their own good - and a baby is actually disgusting.

Chopping off a dogs tail or ears for that matter, purely for aesthetic reasons, is mutilation. It is done solely for the benefit of the owner, but, in the scheme of things does no real harm. It should be illegal.

Castration is not for aesthetic reasons. It is a much more serious procedure desinged to completely change the dog's aggression levels and sexual responses in order to make the dog easier to manage, solely for the benefit of the owner. It should not be illegal, but people who pretend they are doing it for a dog's benefit - when they would refuse to give their baby boy the same benefits - are lying to themselves.

You’re actually sick in the head, OP.

I’m not quite sure what point you’re attempting to make, to be honest. Perhaps it would help you to have the conversation with a friend who knows you and how your thought processes tend to work, to make your point clearer to you? It’s quite a leap to go from “should I get a Doberman?” to an existential discussion about neutering as mutilation and removing a dog’s evolutionary purpose. You can’t dock or crop your pet dog, because it’s illegal. You don’t have to neuter your dog, it’s ultimately your choice, but the health benefits to the dog, the reduction in its instincts to fight other males, the removal of the stress of handling a dog desperate to get to a female in heat, and the effects on its behaviour, make it the overall positive choice for both of your wellbeings, and your vet bills.

For the record I am NOT pro castration per se. I am pro choice based on the individual dog, his temperament, potential health issues, family set up etc etc.
As with everything to do with dogs, there really isn’t a one size fits all answer. Which you will obviously know OP, seeing as you have morphed from zero experience whatsoever to complete friggin’ expert in the space of one thread

I think the big clue was the original post in which the OP morphed from someone who had been terrified specifically of Dobermans into someone obsessed with the idea of having one, despite never having had any dog before.

The difference is the ability to make rational, considered choices op? A dog will not always choose what is best for him or her, because they do not have that ability. A grown man is perfectly capable of choosing to remove his ability to procreate and we do offer that to men. It’s called a vasectomy.

This thread has gone wild.

To answer @LandSharksAnonymous, who asked
do you really think that someone who compares docking to castration is fit to be a dog owner? Because I certainly don't.
Um. BOTH can be done for the ultimate good of the dog. Spaniels and most of the hunt point retrieve breeds were traditionally docked because their tails are long and whippy and prone to injury - I have lost count of the number of undocked ones I've known who have had either long-standing, painful and very hard to heal injuries, or tail amputations as adults (extremely painful, with a long healing time - a good friend's dog, who was a pet and not in work, went through it and it was very miserable for the dog, and worrying for the owners). Other retrievers (labs, flatties, GRs) were not traditionally docked as their tails are shorter and thicker and less prone to injury (though not immune). And most of the HPRs and spaniels I know who get out into the field (lots) are docked.

Possibly by 'double docked' (as mentioned upthread) what is meant is tails docked and ears cropped. I can see no justification for ear cropping other than aesthetics (which isn't enough IMHO). I also can't see a justification for docking breeds where the tail injury risk is very low.

And the research on castration (and spaying) is very interesting. Quite a lot has come out of UC Davis in recent years, and they advise either not neutering, or delaying the neutering beyond 24 months, certain breeds. They looked at health issues related to cancer and joints, not behaviour.
One of the papers is here:
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/veterinary-science/articles/10.3389/fvets.2020.00388/full?fbclid=IwAR35sPgrYJO88hpZmljw9E-UTCTUuvkytg51s-TXrWEaTAc86n2cOyqjT4A&mibextid=Zxz2cZ
It suggests that male Dobes should be left intact, and females not neutered until >23 months. Though the caveat, of course, is that behavioural issues were not examined.

There isn't even much evidence that spaying reduces the risk of mammary cancer - though it does, obviously knock pyo on the head, which is why my two bitches are both spayed, though I waited until they were fully mature, physically, mentally and socially.

And as for cutting people slack... I worked in education for a number of years, and I learned a lot. Not to jump to conclusions, to give DC the chance to express themselves and work things through. So I tend, now, to give people the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes they deserve it, sometimes they don't.
But better a live criminal than an innocent hanged.

It's a yes or no question - because castration and docking are very different things. And so is castrating a dog and committing genital mutilation on a child - again two things OP compared.

Because, personally, I don't think someone who conflates two very different issues and compares one of them to genital mutilation of a child is fit to own a dog. And, being frank, I think anyone who doesn't think what OP said is in any way problematic is as bad as OP.

@EdithStourton i have to agree with @LandSharksAnonymous that as the OP did compare genital mutilation of a child and castration of a dog, I’m struggling to see how anyone could in any way defend them.

It’s a pretty sick comment to have made, and I’m quite surprised MNHQ hadn’t deleted this thread. Threads have been deleted for less.

Didn't know I was lecturing anyone.
I find castration obviously a very good thing, btw.

The case can be made (doesn't convince me but not ridiculous line of logic) for not bothering to castrate male dogs but cats, omg, talk about animals that can never enjoy their fertility and have ruinously worse life for keeping their fertility.

Is that another lecture from me? Never too sure.
Seems OP is enjoying a new line of stirring.

They are never recommended for a novice dog owner - for good reasons. There are a multitude of behaviourists on social media that can advise you. Another huge no no for a first dog is a Mallinois. Actually, any working breed or bloodline. I have a Newfoundland and a Labrador and a Pug. Wonderful eclectic mix and if I could have discovered the Labrador 40 years ago I think I would have had many - but NOT a working line Labrador, a show line has a much calmer disposition -obviously there are exceptions to the rules. A Golden Retriever is a pretty safe bet for a first dog, too. If you like big, strong, muscular dogs, an English Mastiff (that doesn’t mean any other breed of mastiff!) is also a large, calm breed. I’d love one but, even with my Newfoundland (she’s fairly small at 45kg), when she lunges at fox scent, which I can’t always detect (obviously) she can give me a bloody good muscular strain! I wouldn’t have another because of the stubborn streak in the breed. I much prefer the biddable personality of my little Lab. she’s been bloody hard work around other dogs-body slamming them (she has no/warped play manners sail being with my Newf), and it has caused a LOT of issues with other people and their dogs, so at 18 months I’m still working hard with a behaviourist to calm her down. She tbh er she would have been different without Mrs Newf to run in and start protecting her, I have no idea but I am currently dealing with pack issues. I am experienced in many breeds, petite in stature and canine behaviour is a huge hobby of mine-I have the time and patience to see all of this through-bit at times it is NOT fun and can be quite stressful. So; try watching Will Atherton if you can find him on his socials-he does a lot of good work and at the moment is bringing up his latest puppy, a German Shepherd. He has owned an English Mastiff previously who sadly passed away very young. Don’t go near Cane Corsos as they need a VERY strong leader - a well bred Rottie may fit the bill, so long as you have the strength to control the dog when it lunges. I have to say that at my Newfies swimming club, I have never seen so many grown men fall over when their (usually young) dogs got over exited - which often happens when in a group scenario. They are beautiful dogs with fantastic personalities around children, but you REALLY have to want one for the coat upkeep and the wet and dirt they bring in is just phenomenal. Mine doesn’t slobber like all the descriptions say - so that goes against the grain in some way.
If you would like to do further research, on breeds, I have recently found a brilliant bit of research done by Stanley Coren, (Stanley Coren (born 1942) is a psychology professor, neuropsychological researcher and writer on the intelligence, mental abilities and history of dogs. He works in research and instructs in psychology at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, British Columbia. He writes for Psychology Today in the feature series Canine Corner.[1)
He produced papers on which breeds of dog took the longest to understand a command. Sorry that was long - I’m a bit of a breed behaviour nurd 😊

@LandSharksAnonymous @LeonardosYoungerModel
In fairness, I didn't read the whole thread - I was about to go out and didn't have time (have just got back in) and no, those are not two things that I would conflate, as they are VERY different. Neutering a dog can be done for all sorts of valid reasons. Genital mutilation of a child, not so, at all.

I'm still going to give new posters the benefit of the doubt, though, for the reasons I have given elsewhere on the thread.

Im amazed at all the sincere responses on this thread

‘Should i get a Doberman as a first dog?’

One single Google search would tell you the answer. I roll my eyes at anyone who wants a husky, Doberman, German shepherded, Malinowski as a first dog.

I have a basic sighthound, and even with such a laid back dog, there are things I didn’t consider beforehand - both about owning a dog and the breed itself.

Jumping in with a Doberman is just stupid, nuff said. Dont do it.

Stanley Coren's stuff is hilarious! Obeying commands is in no way connected with intelligence. My breed comes in at 64 but having lived with LGD for almost 50 years, their intelligence and reasoning continues to astound me on a daily basis. Comparing my calm, deep thinking dog - ranked 64 - with my neighbour's ball obsessed Border Collie - ranked 1, it is immediately apparent that intelligence is being confused with trainability. The more programmable breeds are always referred to as highly intelligent, where the independent minded LGD's, who work completely off their own initiative, with no handler and are able to judge right from wrong, always score badly on intelligence rankings because of their "fuck that" attitude towards blindly obeying commands.
For this reason, the Livestock Guarding Dog breeds are absolutely not recommended for first time or novice owners. But I'd be very sceptical of these intelligence rankings, because as with clever kids where the exam results don't always reflect the year's work; the more programmable and malleable ones often do better in exams than their cleverer more studious counterparts.

In so many ways this is a sickening thread for people who genuinely like and care for dogs.

I sincerely hope the OP never gets a dog.

I've thought long and hard about whether to comment on this thread, because I broke all the rules in every way so my experiences go against the majority. But my experiences might show a different viewpoint so I'll take the risk of it making me unpopular. Which, I suspect, it will.

My family chose a gigantic livestock guarding breed as our first dog and that would absolutely not be recommended for novice owners. I think in some ways having that as a first dog worked to our advantage because we had absolutely no preconceived ideas about what constituted "normal" dog behaviour, so we learned on the job, as it were. Looking back I can see that it could have ended badly, it is far from an easy breed, and for us there was perhaps an element of luck that it ended up being a perfect dog choice. I currently have my eighth dog of the same breed. So for me to state that a strong willed guard dog would be an unsuitable first dog would be hypocrisy. I would say it is perhaps not ideal for most, but it can work out provided you do your research and have a good level of commitment.

The second rule I broke relates to castration. I've had four intact males. Again, this worked with no issues. I'm not morally averse to neutering and, given that all our cats of both sexes have been neutered, it could be termed hypocrisy. With the dogs, it has never felt necessary. Our breed is generally fairly calm natured and low energy so we have had no problems with overstimulation, humping, scent marking indoors, dominance or aggression. It may be sheer fluke that none of these issues arose with any of our boys and on our part it was not from an ethical viewpoint that we opted not to neuter. It just never felt necessary.

I don't believe that human castration has any relevance to the subject of dog neutering. I suspect there has been an element of deliberate provocation and being out to shock here on this thread, in order to elicit argumentative responses.

My breed is neither docked (tail) nor cropped (ears) although some of the Asian LGD breeds are cropped to minimise the risk of injury from predators. I am averse to either procedure being carried out for cosmetic/aesthetic reasons.

Well this thread has gone weird.

Back to the question. Do I think a Doberman would be a good breed for a first time owner?
Absolutely not. In fact I would avoid the majority of working breeds - it is the hardest and most demanding way into dog ownership. Yes you know this on paper and think you can handle it but in reality many people just find it too hard.

I highly recommend you never get a male dog if you aren't willing to get it spayed.
All dogs can go berserk over lots of stuff, squirrels, bikes, cars and it's hard to keep them under control........ Throw in every female dog as well with an animal who can't control his urges - it's just miserable.

Most pet owners neuter and spay due to cancer and things like pyo, mammary cancer, mess of seasons, etc I’m not even sure it reduces aggression and humping- or certainly not guaranteed. My friend’s older, spayed Lab still humps her lol.
I wish I’d been more provocative and thrown a kid under the bus on my thread as you’ve had some useful answers and links to studies. 🤣🙄Mental note to self.

@Pipsquiggle Male dogs get neutered not spayed 🙈

@Glitchymn1 I genuinely thought spayed was for both sexes 🤦🏼‍♀️

All our male dogs we got neutered because they started humping everything. After the op, it stopped.

Hello, I am a first-time Doberman owner. I also fell in love with Dobermans. My daughter was 8 years old when I brought our Doberman female puppy home, and she is a dream. She is now 4 years old. She adores smaller children and often stays with a friend who has a 3 year old son and they are obsessed with each other.

Dobermans are highly intelligent and energetic, but they are also easy to train; they learn quickly and are eager to please their owner. I would not have any other breed. If you are an active household that loves being outdoors, a Dobie would be a great fit for you.

I would just say you need to be firm and consistent with training for example, I always make her wait for her food until I tell her its ok to eat. They thrive on rules and consistent boundaries - a little like children!

Happy to answer any questions. You can see my girl on Insta: Lexi le dobie

@JamieCannister

Thank you... I am not about to get a Doberman... but reassuring to know that maybe it is realistic when I am better placed in terms of house / garden / time / lifestyle etc. (To be clear it is doable now - we have all of those things, but perhaps not to the extent that would be ideal)

No worries! If and when you do, I am happy to share my experience/tips. I adore the breed, (but love all dogs!) Have a good day :-)

Or a golden retriever (more hair though)! Both easy to train and have very even temperaments.

Golden stays a puppy for a bit longer I think and the land shark days were quite trying… but now they need a walk a day and are happy to play and snooze the rest of it. Have been able to leave them at home alone from a young age, easy to house train etc. never used crates but think they adapt well to them…was a novice dog owner and they were the absolute best choice for us