Looking for some positivity

[Scrumdidlyumptious]

Hi,

We're looking at getting a dog, we dont really want to go to a breeder for a puppy and would prefer to adopt a rescue dog. All the big rescues RSPCA, dogs trust etc etc have very strict criteria (rightly so) but it often rules us out due to having a preschooler. We have the opportunity to adopt a Romanian rescue dog who is already in the country and has been in foster for 3 weeks. We have met this dog with the children and all went well, the dog was calm, approached us for fuss and attention, lay down whilst the kids pet him and didn't seems phased at all with anything.

Apparently this dog did have a home in Romania, but was turfed onto the streets when his owner died.

We have heard a lot of negative things about Romanian dogs though and there's something niggling at me. All the paperwork seems to be there and I have seen it, all health stuff up to date, imms, worming, brucella etc etc. and as I said the meeting went well.

So why do I have this niggling feeling not to go for it? I'm at the point where I don't know if I've researched too much and only found negative experiences and that is now clouding my view.

Can anyone share any positive experiences of adopting Romanian dogs to help balance my view a bit? Or is negativity all there is?

Nope. You are missing the point. I don’t buy from breeders, I clean up the horrible mess they make.
And, as a breeder, don’t you care that this is happening? You absolutely should but it seems you don’t. The breeders I’ve got my dogs from ( directly and via rescue) absolutely professed to be “ good” breeders. I’ve never yet met a breeder who thinks they are anything other than “good”. But the dogs that arrive in my house show the truth of this.
And answer me this. How is the general public supposed to know what a “good breeder” is? KC registration isn’t worth the paper it’s written on, they all have a good “front of house” set up, it would look absolutely fine to someone who doesn’t know.
My most recent two come from a kennel that charges in excess of £3k for a puppy. I’ve had them for TWO YEARS and I still cannot get a lead on them. Seven years, crated in the dark, breeding puppies for buyers who know no better, will do that. They are doing so much better than they were, they improve slowly, they are happy with us and our garden and land which is absolutely set up to help them get over the mess that breeders make of them. Those are just facts.
I would much, much rather breeders were far more controlled and monitored and then I wouldn’t have so many damaged, traumatised dogs through my door.

Sigh. I care. I am just pointing out that you were incredibly naive - or you are being deliberately obtuse, but I really hope not - to think anyone selling their dog after they can no longer breed is a 'good breeder.' I'm quite surprised anyone can believe that.

My most recent two come from a kennel that charges in excess of £3k for a puppy. I’ve had them for TWO YEARS and I still cannot get a lead on them.
I mean, you've answered your own point there. These dogs aren't from good breeders. They're from puppy farms. No dog is worth £3k except a police dog, military service dog or a working border collie.

How is the general public supposed to know what a “good breeder” is?
I answer this question all the time. Literally weekly. Only one breeding bitch at a time, no more than two litters per bitch (not before the age of 3 and not after 5 ideally), full health testing going back at least 2-3 generations, keeps mum and any other dogs when they can no longer be bred from. They vet you as thoroughly as you should vet them - that means home check (either in person or video evidence), asking you about your experience, your knowledge and your ability to care for that breed, possibly even bank statements etc. Puppy contract that is detailed and actually contains relevant information - not just one you get off the KC website and do a copy and paste job on etc.

The sad fact is, as always, I am not the person to be picking an argument with. I agree. But the real honest truth is people don't give two shits about dogs - as long as they get their dog, they couldn't give a rats arse about the mother, or the quality of life she has. Because people are cunts.

What you're describing is a puppy farm @Buildingthefuture , not a reputable breeder. There is a world of difference.

What? I’m not naive? I haven’t “bought” these dogs, they have been ditched in rescue by “ reputable” breeders, apparently like you? And ended up in rehab with me.

The two I currently have, according to you I have “answered my own point”
I don’t get that, it’s not my “point” at all. Personally, I don’t give a shit where they come from. Some KC registered breeder had them, exploited them, then ditched them when they could no longer breed. Where exactly do you think those dogs should or do go?

I agree the general public should ask far more when buying a dog. Do they? No. Talk louder about this.

And honestly, I will pick an argument with you about this, all day long. If you were a true dog lover you would understand. How about you come to my house, have a look at the traumatised, damaged dogs I’ve got from “ reputable” breeders? Or would you rather continue to pretend that this doesn’t happen?

If you have traumatised, damaged dogs, they did not come from reputable breeders @Buildingthefuture . I'm not sure what you are basing this assumption about what you see as "reputable" breeders on, because it doesn't sound as if they would meet any of the criteria that we go by when we start looking for a new pup.

And both @LandSharksAnonymous and myself (and others) do talk very loudly about this very subject on many of the puppy buying advice threads here. We are continually warning people of the red flags to look out for when considering a puppy, and giving guidance about when to walk away.

There is really no excuse for supporting puppy farms.

I have had a really good experience with a Romanian rescue, he’s just the best dog and has been brilliant and gentle with my preschool children. We had him first. I know a lot of people with Romanian rescues now through him, and it’s all mostly positive. If anything, some anxiety and dog reactivity. I’d like to get another, and will consider a Romanian rescue again. For me it’s fundamental to meet with them a few times and for them to be in this country already

Again, I haven’t “bought” these dogs. I have adopted them from rescue or, taken them, from “reputable” breeders, who literally lie about why they are being rehomed. “I’m stopping breeding”, “I have health issues”. All total lies. I knew exactly what I was taking on when I adopted those dogs, I knew the work it would entail and I knew those dogs deserved a good home. They’ve all become much loved family members and I would do it again every day. But those breeders? They’ve all carried on breeding and they all continue to charge a fortune for puppies. Whilst spouting the same old shite. I have cleaned up the mess for a lot of very damaged dogs that result from the many, many shit breeders we have.
If you are breeder, do you honestly believe there aren’t an awful lot of really, really shit ones?

Yes, you have already said you rescued and did not buy. There are a lot of shit breeders @Buildingthefuture , that cannot be denied, but the shit ones are not "reputable" and that is the distinction that we are trying to make. Not everyone who sells pedigree puppies or shows dogs is the same. Paperwork and bloodlines are meaningless if the breeder puts no effort into the health and wellbeing of their dogs.

No, I am not a breeder, just a giant breed owner with almost 50 years experience, which is why I'm trying to encourage people to avoid the puppy farmers and know what to look for when choosing a pup. Because there are wonderfully conscientious, caring breeders out there who put a lot of effort into maintaining the good reputation of their chosen breed. Puppy buyers just need to be more careful with their choices.

TRUST YOUR GUT. That niggling feeling is your gut.
I own a very large, fiercely protective dog who I trust w⁷ith my children. My parents have a Romanian rescue and she is totally untrustworthy. She is nervous, reactive and has biten strangers. I never let her near my children unless I am literally within arms reach. Despite the fact that my children are dog savvy as they have grown up with dogs, I would never leave this Romanian rescue with them for a moment. I trust them to behave but not the dog.

I wouldn’t get a dog I knew nothing about. Do you know the breed characteristics?

Most Romanian rescues are mongrels. To not know the history is one thing if it's going to an adult only home but is reckless where children are concerned.

But how does Joe Public recognise the difference between reputable and…not? Have you honestly EVER known a breeder describe themselves as….well, shit? Have you?

One of my girls, I’ve had her for almost a decade now, came as an ex- breeder from a “reputable” KC registered breeder. And I have to admit, her set up looked good. Lovely, oak framed, heated rooms (kennels but prettier) “front facing” parent dogs, happy, out going, all vet paper work in order. She was “stopping breeding due to health issues”. The dog we adopted was almost 3. I’m by no means naive so I knew what to ask. On questioning that dog had NEVER been for a walk, never left her assigned “area” never experienced life, at all. Consequently she hid behind our sofa for the first 3 months after we brought her home. We expected that, we worked with her and she’s had a lovely life, she is utterly perfect and adored, honestly the light of my life.
But, that breeder thinks she’s doing an amazing job. She simply is not, not for her dogs. Oh and she is still breeding now. So much for her “health issues”.
But if she was on here now? She would absolutely say she was a “wonderfully contentious” breeder. She isn’t. THIS is the reality of a lot of breeders.

First post nails it!

Your child is too little for you to get a rescue dog. Your gut is right. It's too risky. You can get a dog any time, so definitely wait a few years

Re the discussion of what makes a good breeder, this is why I tend to advise people to look at the breeder's socials and their website.

We currently have two dogs, and I was all over the info the breeders put on the internet - even with the breeder I knew personally. FB is very handy here, as you can check the breeder out, and they can check you out, too. You can satisfy yourself that the dogs are happy and at ease on walks, for example.

The differences are very obvious @Buildingthefuture . It was all outlined earlier by @LandSharksAnonymous but you continue to deny it, based purely on your own experiences.
You claim you're not naive, yet what you describe getting a dog from is very clearly a business and nothing more.

Kennel Club registered does not mean "reputable" and why on earth would you listen to someone's opinion of themselves? That doesn't even enter into it. You ask for recommendations from the breed club, from other breeders, from long term people within the breed. You need references for your breeder just as much as they need references for you.

Aim for small show kennels, always rely on word of mouth within the breed. Be willing to travel for the right lines/right breeder. With one of our pups, we were on a waiting list for 5 years for a dog from a specific kennel, because they breed so rarely. We knew the background of the parents of the litter; both lived as pets in families with children, the dogs were not full time kennel dogs and the puppies were not crated. We had home checks and had to provide written references before even being considered for a puppy. With a good breeder, you develop a relationship of trust.

As @EdithStourton says, you check their social media, it is far easier to get a feel for people now with facebook, instagram and, in some cases, their own websites. Breed clubs are all online. It's very easy to check people's connections within their breed, whether they seem to be popular, how involved they are with showing, working, rescue. You build up a picture.

It really isn't difficult to find kind and caring breeders whose dogs live as part of the family. Dishonest and disreputable ones are always glaringly obvious. I'm sorry if your experiences of breeders have all been negative, but if you do your research, there are plenty of very good ones to be found.

I’ve got too older children now, and have always had dogs (Labradors, chosen for their nature). Due to UK rescue rules we’ve always had from puppies whilst we’ve got smaller children.

They've been excellent with the kids, so much fun and so loving.

My friends with three younger children adopted from Labrador Rescue and again their dog was really lovely. Maybe try a UK breed specific rescue?

You regularly make some excellent points @LandSharksAnonymous bur I would question your regular comment that you only irresponsible breeders sell puppies to families with young children. I was brought up on a farm dogs horses cows chicken cats and sheep all around me ever since I can remember so were many of my friends. My own children were brought up in the same environment and I think in most rural areas this is the norm for many farming/gun dog/horsey homes. My children had respect for all animals instilled into them from an early age (especially horses🤣) dogs are treated like dogs not “fur babies” (wince) we’ve always had healthy happy welll behaved dogs who my children have had ours of pleasure with.
I agree I wouldn’t want to introduce an unknown foreign rescue into a family with small children but a well bred good tempered (supervised) puppy or even adult dog who’s going to treated like a dog and its boundaries respected should be fine with small children.

I agree with @Corgiowner , it is a very valid point.
None of our breeders seemed to be averse to the idea of puppies being around small children, but it does depend on individual circumstances and the level of experience. One of our pups came from a family with children, two of them from families with young grandchildren. Two of the breeders had themselves grown up within a family environment of showing and breeding, which I believe is also the case with @LandSharksAnonymous And many of the pups from their litters did go to families.
But I suspect a lot of her comments are based on the average first time owner, whose kids are not dog savvy and who may struggle with knowing what the boundaries are. I don't think it's as cut and dried as saying "nobody with kids under 10 should ever have a dog". But certainly with rescues - and particularly those from overseas - the risks of bringing them into a home with young children should not be underestimated.

@Corgiowner I think @CoubousAndTourmaIet has summed it up well with this:

But I suspect a lot of her comments are based on the average first time owner, whose kids are not dog savvy and who may struggle with knowing what the boundaries are. I don't think it's as cut and dried as saying "nobody with kids under 10 should ever have a dog".

I also think @Corgiowner your background is very different to the average person looking for a first dog, or has young children. Most, in my experience, are young professionals who have no idea what the hell owning a dog entails (thinking they can shove it off to day care 5 days a week from week 12, not realising mouthing is a thing etc).

I spend a lot of time dealing with Golden Retrievers who have been sold to people with young children completely ill-equipped to deal with such a large dog (particularly one that stays young so long and is also, unfortunately, incredibly sensitive) and therefore end up 'ruining' the dog or failing to control their children and thus the child gets bitten. Out of the last 8 dogs we've had come in, 7 of them were due to bites on young children and the other one was because the owner died.

Very often, my experience of people who bring in these dogs is they have no idea what they were getting into, thought the dog would be their kids best mate, failed to exercise and train it due to lack of time...and these are all things a good breeder would have realised if they paid any attention and asked any questions. People with young kids (particularly multiple ones) do not really have the time to spend on raising a healthy, happy, dog. Except they don't go to good breeders - they go to greeders.

I am (for lack of a better word) incredibly militant on it and most of the breeders/people involved in the rescue I volunteer with are as well - not because we don't think people with young children can make good owners, but because it's just not a risk we want to take.

Sadly, too many owners these days fail to understand that dogs require attention and dedication - they're not toys your kids can cuddle and fuss - and thus they fail to give the dog what it needs, and that's when accidents happen. It's very different to twenty or thirty years ago.

The reason the breeders I know, and would recommend, aren't willing to sell to families with young kids is because we love our puppies to much to take the risk of them suffering through neglect - so we sell to experienced people, with older kids, who we trust will be reasonable and practical.

Perhaps if I was a 'greeder' who just wanted to make money, I would think differently. But I love my dogs and the puppies to much to take a chance on their future - and I think good breeders should feel that way. Why settle for a 'silver standard' future for your dog when you have the option to give them gold?

I know you’re looking for positivity but there’s a good reason reputable rescues and breeders won’t rehome to families with young children. It’s just not fair on the dog, or on the children who are just being children and inadvertently causing all kinds of problems.

Wait until your child is older and either find a good breeder or a good UK based rescue. Don’t fund the ridiculous trend of importing dogs from overseas.

All of that makes perfect sense @LandSharksAnonymous

I realise that my own comments are always coloured by having a slightly niche breed where everybody knows everybody (well, almost) and it is, in a way, easier to check out the good breeders. It's also very much a breed where people come back or have family connections - all the good breeders are wary of first time owners and the cute factor, experience counts for more than anything with the larger breeds such as ours and yours.

The thing that really stands out in what you say here, is how much dog ownership has changed. Doggy daycare is relatively new, the dog care and grooming industry is a thriving market, crating is the norm and people have more active lifestyles. We see this every day on our walks, the lockdown dogs, first time owners with young families and a fur baby in tow, that is expected to just fit into their busy schedule with no effort involved. We also see the results of this every day on The Doghouse.

People talk about the social impact of covid, how much it has impacted on kids education and emotional development, but the effect on puppies and dogs has also been huge. Not only from a socialising perspective, but also from the lack of stability in the life of a young dog that is passed from dog walker to day care then shoved in a crate while the family eats dinner, without it learning anything about how it should behave within the home and family. Because nobody has time to teach it good manners. Remember that "rescue" GR a few months back that lived in a crate, in a family with toddlers? I know it's what you are dealing with all the time and, given that, your wariness around young families wanting a puppy for the kids to play with, is fully understandable.

2 Romanian rescues here - both large Shepherd types and they are amazing, they weren't puppies though. I've had pedigree KC reg dogs in the past but these 2 are on a different level, brilliant with pre schoolers - I'm so privileged to have them in my life. Just my experience, I know it goes against the grain here.

Also I have young children, and my friends have young children. None of us are crating our dogs, or not adequately exercising them. I really dislike crating. Our dog is walked three times a day, one time in the woods. On the two days we are in the office together, he goes to a small daycare in the countryside, and he loves it. Not all owners with young children are irresponsible.

I will say with our Romanian rescue, he was a huge amount of work at first - very anxious, hadn’t been on a lead before, hid for weeks. Which doesn’t sound like yours, who had lived in a home. However he was never aggressive, and we worked with a behaviourist to understand him better (having both only had dogs from puppies before). He is such a lovely loyal kind dog, and we are so glad we gave him a chance

The problem is that while some dogs do turn out the way yours have, many don’t - they arrive shut down and fearful to the point that they won’t eat, they toilet in their beds, they can’t have a collar or lead put on them and they certainly can’t be around small children.

There has been thread after thread on here from people who were turned down by UK rescues, adopted overseas and were left with an unpredictable dog who clearly couldn’t live in a family home that the rescue weren’t remotely interested in taking back or helping.

There are people who have been told their puppy is some cute little street mutt who then find out it’s some massive livestock guardian that should never live in a home even when well bred.

It’s terrifying, quite honestly.

I think once a dog enters rescue kennels, something has gone wrong... and in 90% of the case it's because of human ignorance. There is a small amount of dogs that are carrying damaged DNA that makes them unsuitable to be around humans.

But mostly it's ignorance, selecting a pet dog for looks, size or a feel good factor (as in Romanian rescues).
And often we forget that not every dog can cope with being a pet in suburbia.

I think OP should wait and use the time to look at pedigree dogs. Look at what the dogs purpose was originally and check if that is something they can provide.