Breeder or home bred?

[cashmerecardigans]

I’m interested know thoughts on this. I’ve got the option of a couple of slightly older puppies. One from a breeder who is on Champdogs, breeds a couple of times a year and is a member of the breed club. Other is a woman who has bred from her 3 year old for the first time, so she can keep a pup. KC registered too. Everything seems above board, is there anything else I should look out for? Am desparate to avoid any sort of puppy farming or over breeding.

If you love dogs then never ever buy from a breeder. Go to a shelter and adopt one. That’s the right thing to do. Breeders torture female dogs. Horrific.

Go for the home bred as she will have put the hours in, stayed at her dogs side whilst it pupped and then slept on the sofa next to them for a week etc

Thanks, she’s given me a lot of detail of how she has whelped them etc, it sounds very reassuring

When I got my dog I came back with an extra pup for pennies as the lady wanted one from the litter, however non of the male pups would sell hence the reason we came back with an extra passenger. It was so sad that these male pups were being practically given away as she didn’t want them.
id go with the breeder who’s pup thought into the breeding

I'd avoid both, personally.

Your option (A): Good breeders don't breed more than once a year - it takes too much effort and is to soul destroying and draining. Raising a litter well is hard, and it wipes you out for weeks and months afterwards. Honestly, even if it's a hobby and you don't work...it's just not really realistic to breed more than once a year and really put in the required amount of effort and time.

Your option (B): 'Home breeders' do not breed with temperament in mind, nor with the healthiest dogs. They often breed because their dog is 'nice' or 'they want a puppy' which isn't really a good enough reason to do it - not when there are so many puppies out there. They often, also, failed to adequately raise their puppies to a decent standard before sending them home - including key socialisation and development milestones.

What you want is a breeder who only breeds selectively:

• A breeder who breeds both for temperament (as much as is possible - nothing is certain) and with fully health tested dogs (ideally generational health testing - so you can be sure you puppy is as healthy as possible).
• A breeder who is as knowledgeable about their 'breed' as it is possible to be and who can advise you about that breed and who will vet you and make sure you are the right owner not just for that breed, but for one of their dogs - not all dogs in a breed, even in something like 'show' lines are alike.
• A breeder who chose the stud after careful consideration, and for the right reasons - not just because he was the first one that came along.
• A breeder who keeps their bitches after they have bred from them and who genuinely cares about their dogs and gives them a good quality of life.
• A breeder who hits all the socialisation/development milestones - and that's not just 'I introduced them to my kids and the hoover once.'

FWIW, home breeders are no more likely to be 'honest' or 'reliable' or 'good' than someone churning out three litters a year. Sorry, but I think it is just as negligent to breed your dog 'just once because you want a puppy' - because I guarantee that person has not put even half the amount of consideration that she should have done into breeding - as it is to breed multiple litters over a year from various dogs. Breeding is far more complicated than inseminating your bitch with sperm from a random dog and hoping for the best because you want a pup and requires real time and effort.

Ask your 'home breeder' (A) what her process was for finding a stud was and (B) how health tested the parents and grandparents are. For (A) she'll either stutter, bluff or say it was a 'family friends' dog, and for (B) I bet my bank balance the answer is 'not fully health tested parents, let alone grandparents' for the health test question.

And ask your 'breed club' breeder (A) how many litters each dog has and (B) what happens to the bitches when she doesn't breed from them anymore. I'm guessing the answer for (A) is over two, and (B) will be 'retires them' (aka sells them to some random).

Slightly older pups?
thats a potential red flag in terms of socialisation window for a start.

Are you in a waiting list?

or are the puppies here already? If so any good or ethical breeder won’t have a litter unless the pups are sold beforehand. And don’t fall for the “oh the buyer pulled out and we have one left” line.

those puppies should have had homes before they were conceived. If you weren’t in their wait lists for a pup then neither are good breeders.

Thanks so much @LandSharksAnonymousthat is really helpful guidance. I’ll ask the questions. The challenge I guess is where to go if neither of them provide the right answers?

Slightly older - the home bred is 3 months old, the breeder pup is a little older as he had an injury and the original purchasers pulled out

@cashmerecardigans if neither of them are able to provide the right answers, then you walk away. Finding a good breeder is really hard, particularly if you're after a dog breed that has had a surge in popularity, but it's worth it.

Puppies are too big of a commitment to take a gamble on. I mean that financially, but also personally. If you get the wrong dog - be that because it's temperament isn't suited to your family, or it's not been properly socialised, or even because of health issues because it's parents weren't healthy - it will effect the next 12-15 years of your life if you are a responsible owner and don't just get rid of the puppy.

I’m very happy to walk away and to wait. I just find it so hard to navigate the process. Am I best to find a breeder I trust and be on a waiting list? I’m sort of losing faith in my own judgement. The point about 12-15 years is exactly what is making me hesitate

Breeder guy has full health history for parents. All relevant tests done. Health history available for grandparents via champdogs info

Home bred

What was the nature of the puppy’s injury? You won’t be able to get insurance that covers it (as pre existing) and if it was serious enough for a buyer to pull out, I’d be very very wary personally of problems further down the line

@Dunnocantthinkofonehe got his tail trapped in a door. The end has had to be amputated, so he took a while to recover. I’m not sure exactly why they pulled out, it’s possible they didn’t want a less than perfect dog, which is sad in itself. But equally it could be that they were wary of future problems, as you suggest

I'm a vet nurse , i won't comment on your breeder choices as i don't believe there is much of a difference between the two - rescue/ breed specific rescue would always be my 1st choice.
My comments are regarding the tail injury - i would be vary wary of this ,tail injuries are notoriously difficult to heal , even when amputation is involved ,they often break down and need further repair .
I would want to see the vets history re the tail problem ,not just the word of the breeder , if the breeder is genuine they would be transparent about showing you this, if the tail injury wasn't an accident but was self inflicted ie pup chewing tail tip this behavioural problem is even harder to conquer.
Please don't buy one of these pups because you feel sorry for it , these scummy breeders just fill the gap with another poor soul waiting for the next gullible person to come along.

@tsmainsqueezei really appreciate your advice. I’ll ask the relevant questions on the tail, but the point about possible self infliction is a good one. It’s starting to feel as if it is all too risky and I am minded to walk away. If needs be I start from scratch and wait for a litter from the right breeder.

And @LandSharksAnonymousthis was the response from home breeder on the sire and heath testing question -
Choosing the stud dog wasn't difficult, I was introduced via a well connected friend who knew I was looking for a young sire with good breeding a nice temperament and conformation with worker training and I wanted to meet his dam - having previously investigated his breeding.
He is KC Registered so no problem detecting his breeding and a KC Coefficient breeding test came up Good Quality.
To my certain knowledge both parents have been successfully vet tested but I have no knowledge of grandparents...

@cashmerecardigans I’d still avoid both.

‘Introduced’ from the home breeder sounds like ‘too lazy to find one myself.’ It sounds like she’s read a manual on what to look for rather than actually did it. And vet tested isn’t health tested (it just means the vet hasn’t found anything illnesses). So I’d be expecting some nasty surprises in the puppies future!

And as PP said, Tail injuries are dodgy and until the ‘CD breeder’ has confirmed how many litters for per and what they do with the girls when they can’t breed anymore, I’d still avoid. Anyone who overbreeds their dog or gets rid of her after she’s been bred from is just as bad as a puppy farmer in my eyes

Thanks so much everyone, I’ve stepped away from both

@cashmerecardigans out of interest, do you mind me asking what the breed is?

It's worth getting in touch with your local breed club and contacting breeders that way - lots of breed clubs have a list of breeders. It doesn't mean the breeders are necessarily ethical, but it does give you a starting basis.

You clearly know what to look for and want to do it properly, so if you start from that and ask the breeders the sorts of questions you have been asking here and trust your instincts I'm sure you'll find a puppy 😊You might find yourself on a wait-list, but as PP said...a wait-list means the breeder is breeding carefully.

Thanks @LandSharksAnonymousI’m after a springer or working cocker. My last one was a Sprocker, but they are harder to find as they aren’t a recognised breed

I’ve tracked down another option. Again home bred, both parents fully health tested and pups brought up in the family home. The owner has horses, dogs and children, so pups are socialised. She breeds very rarely and this will be the dam’s second and final litter as she won’t let her have more than that. She’s already turned down one potential buyer. So maybe more what could be described as a hobby breeder? Any more banana skins to watch out for?

Even though I spent about 45 mins on the phone to the chap who has the one with the damaged tail, I couldn’t get away from the fact that fundamentally he breeds dogs for a living. So even though they live in the house, it’s still a business. He breeds his bitches 4 times, and even though I know that is allowed by the KC rules, it feels all wrong to me. He’d also had 2 litters within a space of months, so thanks for raising that as a red flag too

@cashmerecardigans happy to be able to help!

The latest one sounds like a possible good bet? If the parents are fully health tested and she only breeds 'twice' that's a good sign. It's worth checking what happens to the bitch after her second litter, but for now it sounds more promising!

The main thing I would say is being happy that; (A) the bitch is loved (and won't be got rid of after being bred from - some people think it's okay, but personally [and I am a breeder] I don't) (B) the parents are both fully health tested, and (C) that the breeder is careful about when/how they breed. A good breeder will have as many questions for you as you have for them.

It's easy to confuse 'home-bred' with meaning 'family breeder' (i.e. someone who breeds their bitch just because they want a puppy). But the two are different - a dog should be bred in the family home, but she should be bred from carefully.