Neighbour's puppy crying for hours at night

[JFDIYOLO]

I haven't seen him yet but the crying is awful. It sounds like a panic attack, desperate yelping howling breathless sounds that go on and on for ages until I assume he falls asleep.

My OH saw them the other day and they apologised for the noise saying they were doing something called crate training and they thought it should be done in a few weeks.

He was quiet for some days but it's happening again now.

He sounds desperately distressed and it's quite upsetting.

Anyone know what crate training and is it ok to do? How does it usually go?

They really aren't. I haven't crated any of my dogs and where I live (Sweden) it's illegal to do so because it's seen as animal cruelty. Well, you can have a crate and use as a dog's safe space, but you can not close the door on them and lock them in. They need to be free to leave.

Ok, you have strong feelings about those 2 organisations in particular, but they aren't the only ones advocating for crate training.

The point is that organisations are giving the advice so people listen to it with good intent. No different than listening to the NHS when they are wrong etc.

Let's not falsely accuse people of 'abuse' out of misunderstanding. Education and compassion, without being emotive, works wonders in many situations.

It's also a cultural thing which is interesting

UK & US = encouraged

Switzerland = culturally frowned upon.

Sweden = illegal except in some circumstances like transport or vets.

Sweden actually has legislation heavily regulating the of crates with doors in domestic settings and is illegal to lock a dog in a crate (in a domestic setting) even over night. Vets, transport and shelters obviously have emeptions.

Section 13, legislation SJVFS 2019:28.
also
Swedish Animal Welfare Act (Djurskyddslag 2018:1192) also references any practices that confine animals or restrict movement.

@FluffyWabbit anyone who leaves their dog - regardless of age - crying and panicking and yelling and howling and distressed from that long is abusive and not fit to own a dog. The fact you tare saying it’s not is pretty shocking. Abuse by incompetence is still abuse. Incompetence isn’t a get out of jail free card.

Crate training is fine, if you have the brain capacity to do it properly. Mine are all crate trained. But I trained them - I didn’t shove them in a crate from day one and leave them to cry. All this puppies owners are doing are reinforcing its terror and, ultimately, damaging the chances of building any sort of good bond built on trust with their dog.

The point is that organisations are giving the advice so people listen to it with good intent.

It's never been easier to do some research. Anyone who would listen to a puppy howling for nights on end without thinking "I'd better look up some more about this crate training thing as this can't be right" doesn't deserve to own an animal.

I don't use crates, I can see there are ways of using them that are probably ok, but I'm not even sure the majority use them in that way.

Like I said, sounds of discomfort are not necessarily 'distress'. I find it concerning that abuse gets bandied around like that is the intent of everyone all of the time. Perspective goes a long way.

Illegal in Finland too.

The crate has obviously been moved from the kitchen to the bedroom, so at least he isn't alone at night now.

goodboy co uk states:

1. Provide comfort, but not attention

It’s important to understand that while it sounds like the end of the world, the crying sounds more dramatic than it is! Comforting your canine companion will only ensure she tries the same tactic the next night, and the next, and the next…then you will never be able to stop your puppy crying at night. So instead of cuddles and reassurance, you can start your pooch off by letting them sleep in a crate, pen or dog bed in your room, so they know you are nearby. Remember, for doggos even a quiet ‘Shh!’ can be interpreted as attention, so only allow your pooch to sleep in your room if you can trust yourself not to start chatting away with them in the night. As they get used to sleeping in their own bed, undisturbed, you can slowly move the crate out of your room and towards the location you want it to finally rest in. You can also pop a t-shirt or other item of clothing that you have slept in and smells of you into their sleeping area, to help provide that little extra comfort.

Like I keep saying, it is immaterial about whether or not we agree with the method. There are many who do, many who don't, all provide reasons and guidance etc.

I am concerned about falsely attributing dog howling to 'distress' and crate training to 'abuse' out of not understanding the method or what different dog/puppy sounds actually mean.

Yes we absolutely do know better.
Read up on muscle atrophy in crated puppies. Growing dogs need to be able to walk around and stretch out for proper development of bones and muscles.

In agreement with @LandSharksAnonymous . The Dogs Trust and the RSPCA do not have a great track record for encouraging ethical practices.

There is no indication here that the crate is too small for the dog, though. So, that's not really relevant to the question, is it?

@FluffyWabbit we’ll have to agree to disagree since you clearly do not actually give a toss about the puppies wellbeing. I won’t engage with you anymore as, being honest, I have no time for animal abuse apologists and I find it concerning you think possible ‘weeks’ (as the neighbour said to OP) of an animal being distressed isn’t abusive.

I find it concerning how emotional you are without the ability to use logic. So we're in agreement about disengaging. Best of luck to you.

We got our pup at 8 weeks, we never used a crate, she slept in our room from the start so I could take her out for a wee every time she woke up. After 10 days she was sleeping through the night and holding her bladder all night. I believe she learned to do that because I responded to her when she needed me, so that gave her the confidence to just sleep. She’s 9 now and chooses to sleep downstairs most nights. I remember so many people told us to crate train - I’m glad we didn’t.

Yes @FluffyWabbit it is very relevant. Even a big crate does not afford a growing large breed dog sufficient room. And the post that you were quoting - as a pro crater - referred to a puppy being able to do a full vigorous body shake. So yes, it is 100% relevant. But I agree it is only one factor and the psychological damage caused to crated puppies should not be overlooked.

As you're so happy to quote the RSPCA and The Dogs Trust, perhaps have a look at this also. Another organisation with controversial views but just as relevant.

https://www.peta.org/about-peta/why-peta/crating-dogs/#:~:text=Crate%20Training%20Ramifications,Withdrawal

https://www.peta.org/living/animal-companions/win-friends-influence-people-crate-dogs/

As I said, there are PROS and CONS to the training method and reasons for both can be found.

Why is it so difficult to address the OP's questions without putting a personal perspective on it?

OP asked: WHAT IS CRATE TRAINING

Three external sites have been provided which explain what it is, why it's used, etc.

OP stated: SOUNDS SEEM DISTRESSING

One external site suggests why that is

I have stated I don't use crate training but the question isn't about ME and my FEELS or YOURS or anyone else. It's about a particular question, from a particular person regarding a particular situation.

Can we try to disentangle our emotion and answer the OP question or is it just easier to jump to conclusions and pile on anyone who tries to assist with objectivity?

They’re not following reputable advice though - the professional organisations that recommend crate training all have crate training guides

none of them say put your puppy in a crate and leave it to cry.

good boy uk actually does state this so maybe you should email them with your thoughts about it!

Terrific for all of those of us with an ‘orangery’ - humble boast 😂😂😂😂

Agree. I did crate train following the "official advice" and my heart sinks to think of the damage I did to her trust in me in those early days.

And also the distress I probably caused her. I didn't know her full character at the time but turns out she's an introverted little soul and bottles her stress up.

I'm not totally against it as I don't think I know enough about dogs in general (yet), but for my next puppy I won't crate from the off as the default starting point.

We tried crate training, but our puppy was clearly distressed so we moved the crate into our bedroom and left the crate door open and everything was fine from then on. We didn’t even do a whole night crate training!

Dogs are pack animals! They don’t want to sleep in a box alone!

I sort of think crate training can be a bit cruel and I wouldn’t even attempt it again.

Except I reared my first 7 pups free range before we had an "orangery" @MrsGuyOfGisbo which is why I said current pup. The first 7 were in the KITCHEN, which I presume meets with your approval.

Substitute orangery for conservatory or utility if you want, but either way your comment has no relevance to the crate debate and is typical mn reverse snobbery at its finest.

That is actually concerning. It is outdated advice, like leaving your baby to cry it out. Puppies that have just left mother and siblings need to be comforted. Whatever our views on crating, it is in no way correct to say that offering reassurance for the first few nights leads to ingrained habits. It doesn't.

Crate training is a divisive and controversial topic and it’s easy to see why - some people absolutely do abuse them. A dog howling and barking for that long is clearly distressed so whatever they’re doing isn’t working.

For the right dog, and done properly - crate training can be a useful thing to do. But leaving a puppy in distress for that long is cruel and I would be worried it’ll be severely affected by it for years to come.

I use a crate for my puppy overnight, and I spent 7 weeks sleeping either on the floor next to him or the sofa in the same room. It’s been useful for the odd time when he’s over tired and won’t settle down and sleep - put him in there and switches off and sleeps immediately. I never have anything other than a slight protest whine - and even that’s only occasionally. But if he’d have shown huge signs of distress, even with me lying right next to him, I would have given up and tried something else.

On the topic of the RSPCA and the Dog’s trust - I didn’t know they had such a sketchy reputation but it did seem to me after reading the advice on their websites about dogs and puppies that they’re not in the business of animal welfare as such but more to stop owners trying to rehome their dogs in the first place. So they’re out to make owner’s lives easier over and above meeting a dog’s needs if that makes sense. Sometimes and often to the detriment of the dog.

The crappy dog biscuit people?

We crate trained ours , cried the first night and then settled but once toilet trained the crate was left open in the kitchen , he is 13 now and still wanders off to his crate now and then for a chill out and if we are in the kitchen it’s his space to still be with us. We do lock him in but very very rarely and only if we have a visitor he’s not used to like a tradesman coming for initial quote