Adolescent Dog Survival Thread - for teenage dirtbags

[Bupster]

I've buckled again, I can't take the pressure of being on page 40 😄

@CoubousAndTourmalet Sorry MW isn't working out for you. I hope you find one that suits Brie better.
I know what you mean about the poos. I put my foster dog on James Wellbeloved Light when she arrived as she needed to lose weight. I swear she pooed four times the amount she ate!
There's probably too much choice now and too much contradictory information.
My first puppies were fed Arden Grange as that was considered one of the best at the time.

P was a very fussy puppy and refused to eat most foods. We tried raw, cooked, wet and dry. All sorts of dishes, licky mats, scatter feeding. She just wasn't interested.
K I started on Orijen puppy as it was highly rated and I wanted to give her the best start I could afford. But she often had dandruff. Since switching to CK (cheaper and not as highly rated), she's had a lovely coat.
And then my sprocker had health issues and allergies and could only eat hydrolysed prescription food. That's really poor quality, but everything else made him extremely ill.
So to sum up my essay, feed what suits your dog and your budget.

I'm off to look at the resource guarding thread. Why the fuck are they recalling their dog away from its food? Some people shouldn't have dogs!

@CoubousAndTourmalet I think the OP has good instincts, they've just gone about it the wrong way! And agree it's lovely when you can have that bond. I've been feeding pen with her bowl on my lap whilst she nurses as it's easier for her, and afterwards she just pushes the bowl away and dozes with her head in my lap. It's not simply the trust, it's the utter love in their eyes - 100% worth it.

All going well! All their eyes are open, some are crawling already...I'm dreading the day they develop the ability to walk because it marks the point at which they stop being cute and the 'real' work begins!

I don't know if I'm brave enough. I don't have the experience to talk about re-training a 5 month old, or how you build that trust... I lack the experience to be sure I'm saying the right things. I feel for her though.

Indeed, it is the love in their eyes. When Brie is being picky, like today and I hold the bowl, she eats so slowly and keeps making eye contact while I gently encourage her, she loves me talking to her while she eats. Maybe that's a strange thing but all ours have been like that. I could pick up their bowl mid-meal, I don't care that people say you shouldn't. I've had that relationship with all of them.

Maybe it helps that I have a calm breed that isn't food focused though. And that we feed 4 meals so they're never really hungry... I'm certainly not a dog training genius by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe my breed just isn't prone to resource guarding. Maybe I'm getting it all wrong, so I genuinely feel unsure about advising...

Glad all is well with Pen and her pups ❤

We've been through the lot as well over the years @SpanielsGalore James Wellbeloved, Arden Grange, Eukanuba (which made our boy go orange, I'm not joking, his belly and legs looked like a bad spray tan!), Orijen, Taste of the Wild, Wainwrights, Simpsons. Algy was good on the Country Kibble.

We'll get there with Brie. I'll know when we're on the right track.

Bill (who came home with me exactly a year ago today) currently likes me to feed him with a spoon from his bowl 🙄 I was hopelessly embarrassed by the idea at first but actually people tell you to hand feed kibble all the time to bond with your dog. I've always wanted to let him have free access to his food rather than use it to train, but I've decided that the spoon feeding can be our guilty secret, as I really like it and so does he. And after a while I ask him if he can do it by himself and he can, perfectly well, he just likes me to start him off, and be with him when he eats for a bit.

He's spent most of his Gotcha day driving me nuts - walking round with this bottle in his mouth and whining till I follow. Poor bug is bored and hot and spreading the joy. @CoubousAndTourmalet I think you asked about his poor paw - he's taking his medication like a trouper and it's definitely not bothering him as much, but it doesn't seem to me to be healing yet either. Early days I suppose, but I'm ringing the vets again tomorrow (not taking him in tomorrow though, it'll be an oven).

Happy Gotcha Day, Bill. 💖
Glad to hear you have your servant well trained.

Happy Anniversary @Bupster and Bill 💕

You are not alone. I've fork fed all mine with cubed up meat trays (Forthglade etc). When I start Brie's lunch, if she's down the garden, I go onto the back step and wave a fork with a chunk of meat on and she comes galloping (well, gallumping) up the path.
I break all the feeding rules. I stroke, kiss, cuddle, rabbit to them while they eat. Yup, I live dangerously by being in their face. And I love it, but seemingly, so do they 😁Clearly you & Bill have a similar bond.

I hope the vet can reassure about the paw problem...

@CoubousAndTourmalet I've stroked my dogs whilst they eat from day one. I'm not couth enough to use a fork, so I have hand fed raw food. I have put my hand in their bowls, but always to add something extra tasty. Sat on the floor next to them. They are all perfectly comfortable with me being around them whilst they eat. They'll come and sprawl across my lap whilst eating chews and treats. (Not so great when it's the poo eating puppy. 🤮)
But I would never take their bowl away from them whilst they are eating. I wouldn't like someone to take my dinner away, so why should a dog have to put up with it?
I had a rescue dog whose previous owner used to do that to show him who's boss. It didn't end well. Well. It ended well for the dog, because he came to live with me instead of staying with a dickhead.

Yes, @SpanielsGalore - I've only heard about taking a dogs bowl away from the same people who spout alpha theory bollocks and showing dog who's 'leader'

We've always done what you said, and added extra treats to their bowls whilst eating etc. so they learn that hands near bowls is a good thing.

Pup is currently insisting on lying on my lap as if it's not hot enough already!

Oh dear 😬
Jeez, this is nuts.
I must be a dickhead alpha bollocks person, because I do pick up their food bowls. Clearly this is why the MN hound people frequently like to kick me in the head and tell me I know nothing. I honestly had no idea these were the rules. Seriously, how do you find out what the rules are? I just made it all up as I went along.

Anyway, with my lot I will lift the bowl, they wait for me to add stuff or loosen what's there. Sometimes the cat goes to their bowl and eats from it, they stand back and wait. Can't say I've really "trained" them to do it, it's just how they are. I do encourage them to eat lying with the bowl between their paws, and I encourage them to eat slowly. I used to feed three lying side by side. No alpha bollocks about it as far as I could ever see. Just calm, happy dogs.

These are dogs that, in the working environment, eat with livestock, eat from a trough, fed on porridge, cheese and scraps. They don't have a master, they don't work to command. They aren't prey driven or food driven, a lot of the time they just walk away from the food. So really, they aren't fussed when I lift up their food, it's not like they cower in submission.

I very often sit and hand feed, and that's generally when I'll pick up the food. I did it today because she was being hesitant; the meat was stuck on the edge, so I picked up the bowl, loosened the meat and held the bowl so she could finish. Sorry but I must be missing something (a brain, perchance...?) because I fail to see how that's dominance or me "showing who's boss". She knew what I was doing, she was looking right at me, and I was quietly talking to her. It's just what I've done after years of very picky eaters. And I've never had an issue, until now, learning that I'm doing everything wrong... 😧

So, quite honestly it's just as well I didn't comment on the resource guarding thread, spouting my dickhead alpha bollocks.

I don't think what you're doing is what the alpha people are doing. I've been known to take Bill's bowl away during his meal, but like you, it's to add stuff, and he trusts me, so that's fine. I think the alpha people are taking it away deliberately to upset the dog, to underline that the dog isn't a valued member of the house but an underling. I'm pretty sure you waving a fork at Brie and telling her stories while she eats is not at all the same thing, and doesn't feel like that to you or to Brie. Sometimes the important thing is the emotional connection. You and I and the others on this thread are taking about connection; the alpha tossers are talking about subjugation.

@CoubousAndTourmalet I agree with @Bupster. What we do with our dogs is very different to what a lot of people view removing a dog food bowl, or 'interfering' in some way with food, as. At a basic level it's about trust, whereas what they are talking about and how they see it is, as Bupster says, subjugation.

I don't think you're doing anything wrong. I do it with my dogs.

To me, it's another level of training (although I know you don't see it like that @CoubousAndTourmalet as it's just 'you' in the sense of how you act with your dogs). But I think it's the step up from teaching a dog to 'leave' or to 'recall' from something it really wants.

As I said on that other thread (although I don't think OP will come back to read it), when done right it's extraordinarily useful and can install amazing levels of trust between dog and owner. But people very often do it wrong and do it to assert dominance rather than with the dogs best interest at heart.

Thanks @Bupster I hope so. I mean that it's connection and I suppose I think of it as trust.

But I'll honestly have to start being more careful what I say on random MN threads. I really don't want anyone to think I'm into that whole alpha thing. It's bothering me a lot right now, because I made a big joke of it when that hound person told me I'm irresponsible... Clearly that's how they see it, because they understand the rules of dominance theory and I really don't. I'm very childlike and naive in many ways.

If any of you met me you'd see that I'm the least strict dog person on the planet, Brie is totally a free spirit, I just let her be who she is. It was the same with my others.

Thanks @LandSharksAnonymous

I just do what I do and I've never questioned it. I never even think that I'm training them, but we've never had a resource guarding issue or a problem barker or an escapee. I genuinely don't think it's down to me. It's just who they are. It's all just smoke and mirrors. I don't want to start overthinking it all at this point in my life though. I might have one more Pyrie in me before I call it a day.

I'm glad I didn't post on that thread today. I just don't think I have enough experience. What I do with my 8 week old pups is very different from what an already resource guarding 5 month old needs. That would scare the shit out of me. Maybe the hound woman is right and I've just been lucky. My dogs have all seemed to know they need to look after me, so they humour me I guess. I'm so suited to my breed, it's insane, but give me any other type of dog and I'd be out of my depth, seriously.

@CoubousAndTourmalet What the others said. 😊 It sounds to me like you are doing exactly the things I said I do. (Not that I'm an expert either.) The only difference I can see is I add food to the bowl whilst it's on the floor and you pick it up to do it. I've picked up bowls of fussy eaters and hand fed it to them.
The Alpha male brigade remove food as a show of power over the dog. Not to help them unstick a piece and hand feed them.
Have you ever seen the 'Cesar Milan labrador bite' video clip? He's the sort of person we're talking about. I bet those Southern trainers teach the same methods.
Without giving too much detail, my rescue dog was in a very troubled home. As a way of dealing with the stress, he started to resource guard his food bowl. The owner dealt with it by removing his bowl to put him in his place and it escalated to a bite. DDog was only 6 months old. He was the softest, most trustworthy dog you could ever wish to meet. He never once grumbled, growled or snapped at anyone else for the rest of his life.
The Akita is clearly showing the person he is uncomfortable with them in his space whist he is eating. If they had started as you and I did three months ago, things might be different now. In my opinion, they now need to back off and throw treats from a distance until the dog is comfortable and gradually get closer. If they keep pushing his boundaries, they are heading for trouble.
And I apologise if I made you feel bad or upset you. I've not been here long, but it is clear for all to see you aren't a "dickhead alpha bollocks person".

Thanks @SpanielsGalore

There's honestly nothing to apologise for. I can see that there's a huge difference. yes, between what all of us here do to try to avoid resource guarding, and what the macho man dog trainers advocate. I try to avoid watching them, most of their methods horrify me. Pretty much the only dog videos I watch are the ones connected with livestock guarding dogs in a working environment.

I don't know where I'd start with the Akita but probably some sort of combination of hand feeding and play, to try to gain his trust. I'm only now beginning to realise how little I do know, so it's just as well I stayed out of that one. Clearly I've been winging it for the last 30 years with our own 6 dogs. I do need to learn to be more circumspect in what I say here on MN, I'm nowhere near as confident (or as competent) as I may seem.

Wish I was up in Scotland tonight; it's unbearably stuffy here. Even worse down in the south east of England, I would imagine...slightly dreading tomorrow...

I hope everyone manages to stay comfortable tonight and tomorrow. Take care x

I tend to fall down rabbit holes when I'm interested in things and so I've spent the last year reading everything I possibly can about dogs, including academic research, and I am very clear now that I know absolutely nothing 😄

As a sort of academic exercise, I think the first thing I'd do with the Akita is leave the poor sod's main food bowl alone, but gradually get him to take treats from my hand, throwing them first if he can't do that yet. So I reckon we're all on the same page on this thread. I'm leaving the other thread well alone, as the OP is going to need a proper trainer/behaviourist and @LandSharksAnonymous has said everything useful that I would.

It's horrible here in the East Midlands already, and Bill is a monumental pain in the arse on hot days. I'm exhausted as he got me up at six for a walk (which was good as we got a decent one and he saw loads of his friends too) and have very little patience for following him round the house while he carries a plastic bottle, which is all he wants to do - he struggles to nap, can't settle, doesn't want to play. I'm going to have to invent some games to play with frozen chicken stock ice cubes, and hide all his plastic bottles, or I'm going to go mad by the end of the day.

Last night at least I managed to get him up to the park in the early evening, where he found a forgotten football 😄

Edited to add - his paw seems to finally be healing up and scabbing over! Thank God, I really didn't fancy a vet visit in this heat...

@Bupster sadly, I think it may be one of those threads where OP doesn't listen to the advice and makes it worse!

I absolutely love Bill's eyes! In that photo he's so clearly saying, 'you will play with me. Won't you? Please. Pretty Please. Play with me or I'll be a turd!'

Mine aren't going out today or tomorrow. The garden is big enough they can, thankfully, run off any energy. But all of them are currently in the garage where it's much cooler because of the concrete floors. Only twatdog has any energy, and it's very half-hearted from him. Bless his heart.

@LandSharksAnonymous very envious of both garden and garage - my garden is tiny and all gravel, and it's a rented house so I can't do anything about it. It was fine for us when he was smaller, and we are super-lucky in that we have a dog park, a lovely shaded cemetery and a common all within walking distance, but in the heat I really wish I had more space and grass for him. I was looking to buy* but I work at a university, and the sector is imploding, so daren't until I know what's happening with my own job.

*yes, I've already bought a car for him and now I'm looking to buy a house for him. And I spoon feed him. But he's definitely not spoiled in any way 🙄😄

Brie won't be getting walked today either. She's on the tiled floor, windows open, blinds closed, two big fans blowing. When it's hot she just sleeps.

@Bupster - that's 5 star treasure that is!

And yes, as others have said, a world of difference between removing a bowl as a show of dominance or some sort of test and engaging with your dog as mealtimes and helping them out.

My little one will bring a Kong to me so I can help her with the last bit, but older one will just sit and cry at it! (She'll also come and do middle so I can help if she has grassy poo hanging out her bum which is slightly less cute!)

We've been out this morning when it was pleasantly fresh, may go to the woodland stream or a gentle walk to the allotment depending on temps later.

@tizwozliz 😂 I remember feeling so chuffed with how much my 5 month old puppy trusted me when she ran over to me in the woods and asked for help.

@Bupster I bought my car and house for my dogs. With my car, I walked around the garage forecourt with the salesman making him measure the size of the boots. In the rain. He earned his commission that day. The house was bought for the garden. I have a small lawned section and they have the rest to dig massive holes in.

When I got up this morning, the sky was blue, the sun was shining and I thought finally! Then it clouded over and the wind picked up. 🙄
Now sitting indoors with all windows and doors closed following police advice. The sky is thick with smoke from the wildfires that are burning about 30 miles away. It's forecast rain for this afternoon, so hopefully that will help put them out.

@Bupster - it is handy having the garden but the downside is the 75 minute train journey each way when I have to commute (thankfully only twice a week)...plus the 15 minute walk both ends 😥Couldn't have bought anything closer that had the garden we needed! It's managable to have a small garden with one dog, but when you have two or more you run the risk of them playing in the house and destroying everything!

But as with @SpanielsGalore I got my cars based on the dogs! I also compared boot sizes with various models before I settled on the ones I chose. Poor DH, he just trailed around after me looking a bit lost and confused which tbh is pretty much his default when I start talking dog stuff to him - he's very much a dog lover, but not a dog owner if you get my drift. Bless his heart.

We'd like a bigger garden, but we're in such a good spot, that unless we could move to somewhere properly remote, we're better off staying put. My chap's office location is about 40 miles away, though he mostly works from home now, but originally location was key.

The house is only a 3 bed end of terrace with a ground floor extension, very average size house and garden. But we're within easy walking distance of moorland and woodland, with fields behind us, so for now at least, we feel that a smallish garden is offset by being in a good location for varied walks.

Cars yes, very obviously dictated by the dogs for us too; always an estate with dog guard.

I hope the wildfires are under control soon @SpanielsGalore