New puppy - parents temperament

[TwinklyTornadoBear]

Morning! After losing much loved DDog last summer, we are getting a new puppy next month. It's the same breed so we've gone through existing contacts and found a litter - all very exciting!

We went to meet them yesterday (puppies are now 4 weeks) and met both mum and dad. Mum was a bit agitated as they've not had any visitors to date, so the breeder gave her a lot of love and took her off to another room where she was a little barky but then settled. Dad was a lovely boy but a bit wary of us - no growling or anything but just keeping his distance before gradually coming over, still a little jumpy. Very happily trotting around and snuggling up with his owners though.

Our last dog was an absolute star - unfazed by anything and very sociable (worst guard dog ever as he'd be after belly rubs within 30 seconds). I guess I'm trying to work out how much was breeding, how much was training...and how much was sheer luck! Does an anxious parent mean an anxious puppy? We also met the puppy's half sister who was from a singleton litter and she was a bit nervous and ended up weeing on the sofa!

I'm probably painting a horrible picture here! The puppies were happy, healthy, sociable and inquisitive, and I know the other dogs will naturally be wary given how small the pups are. I have developed a horrible overthinking habit and I just want to make sure we do the right thing. Any thoughts?

Oh, and obligatory puppy pic, of course.

I think it matters. My last dog was supposed to be a bomb-proof breed. (Bred to be assistance dogs.) Her mum was hyper-anxious and her dad was chill. My dog totally eclipsed her mum in anxiousness and reactivity. We loved her, but she was very hard work.

I'd steer clear, genes are powerful. If I'm reading that right it's a bit of a red flag that the breeders own both mum and dad.

As hard as it is I would walk away.

Breeders are meant to be breed for temperament - not with dogs that aren’t socially stable.

That being said, dogs very rarely have the same characteristics as their parents - it’s like humans. Any breeder who hand on heart can say ‘my dogs are all bred to be of sound temperament’ is a liar. So many things can impact on a dogs personality. Even dogs from two socially stable parents can be neurotic wrecks. We (breeders) can do our best, but nothing is certain.

However, a breeder who takes mum away from her pups would be an incredible hard swerve. No breeder should ever do that, particularly with a new mum when pups are so young still and mum is clearly unhappy. That’s disgraceful.

I'm sorry, but I agree with everyone else, this would be a no for me. It would very much trouble me that they took the mum away from her pups at such a young age, even for a short time.

Was it a half sister or a full sister from a previous litter?
If both parents are nervous and the sister inherited their nature, then it is highly likely the new puppies will be nervous too.

It does matter HOWEVER I'd say my beautifully line bred terrier, bred by experienced breeder, and for health and temperament has a totally different personality than her parents and that of the relatives we met. Mine is highly strung and very sensitive although I'd not describe her as nervous. She is superbly friendly with people, great with kids and just gives most dogs a wide berth. She has however taken a long time to build confidence in certain situations but we are getting there now (she is 2). She definitely is a thinker and hasn't read the How to be a Border Terrier rulebook on being hard as nails. Mum is super laid back and friendly and dad's show notes all describe him as being similar. It's probably a good job she chose us as I am a trainer so have been able to deal with it and grow her without incident but I have no doubt she could have gone the other way. Nothing to do with breeding - it's just how she is.

Given generally what you have said I would probably walk away.

I think genetics has a strong influence on temperament in practically all species- horses, cattle, humans, dogs. Were it not so then CKCS would be basically the same, temperamentally, as Malinois for example.

Thanks everyone - I really appreciate the replies. I’d definitely say it was more wariness on the part of the parents - no signs of fear/anxiety, just that they were slow to introduce themselves! They are a breed known to
form strong single person attachments (our last dog was introduced to all
and sundry to counter this!) so I don’t know if it’s just that.

The other pup was a half sister and had been bottle fed as she’d struggled to feed.

@LandSharksAnonymous I had realised that - I always thought that mum was ok to have a little time away once they were a bit bigger and starting to wean (they’re currently still having both). I’ve known dogs at this point to take themselves out of the whelping box for a bit of a break! Appreciate it’s different when they do it voluntarily. She could still see the pups from where she was, sitting on the breeders husbands lap and just lay there watching.

Will speak to DH tonight and see what he thinks.

I think there is so much a puppy can become wary of as it grows up (despite our best efforts) that having it start from a line of seemingly anxious parentage puts you on the back foot?

I don't know, it's a difficult call. For example, my pup was from a happy litter with a very chill mum, such a nice vibe about it all. BUT she was attacked as a puppy on lead and now is sometimes wary of certain dogs. We've been able to work on this and she has responded so well, but if she was anxious from the get-go, would she have ended up a barky neurotic mess?

Basically, bad things can happen to any dog, but yes, I would think v carefully on how you feel their first environment has been.

@TwinklyTornadoBear I appreciate she could still see the pups (although that wasn't clear from your OP as you said 'another room'), but absolutely no way should the breeder have removed her. No good breeder should remove mum from her pups - particularly when they are that young - unless the pups are in danger in some way. It's incredibly different when a mother chooses to do this herself. And to do it, when the mum was clearly unhappy ('agitated' as you put it), just so a potential buyer can see the puppies more easily? Disgraceful.

Tbh I'm deeply uncomfortable with the idea of people seeing puppies at 4 weeks, when the mother clearly isn't ready. Another week or two would not harm the breeder and would be better for mother and puppies. There's nothing to be gained by doing it this early. It would be an entirely different situation if the puppies were 7 or 8 weeks and mum was behaving like, but 4 weeks? Mum wasn't ready and the breeder knew that - but her desire to get buyers in to see the puppies, and make a sale, overrode what was best for the dogs.

There is nothing about this that sounds good. I'm quite surprised you're even thinking about 'talking to DH' about this. You should be running a mile. It's got so many red flags you might as well have wandered into a Chinese Communist Party Convention.

Mmm, a difficult one.

I would have no problem with the male initially keeping his distance because I'd say he was probably weighing you up but the fact you say he was a bit jumpy changes things.

The litter sister peeing on the couch is submissive urination caused by the puppy feeling overwhelmed and indicative of a nervous temperament.

I gave a home to a slightly nervous farm bred Border Collie (mum was also nervous.) Like all my dogs she had a lot of socialisation which I started at 8 weeks by going out and doing a short walk whilst carrying her (but not putting her on the ground.) Ofcourse, lots of people and children asked if they could give her a little stroke which I agreed to. I did this until she was vaccinated and then I took her to socialisation and obedience classes. She turned out to be a beautiful dog. She was very gentle, she rarely barked and she was perfectly sociable with people she knew and would go to greet strangers if they spoke to her but would ignore them if they didn't.

Having said all of that, my situation was helped by having 3 adult dogs, all of which were well socialised and people friendly and I'm sure she took cues from them as to how to react in certain circumstances.

I would go back to see the puppy again at 6 weeks and then 8 weeks and then make a decision. Four weeks is very young and I'm not surprised mum was unhappy having strangers around the place. The pups would have picked up on mum's discomfort which is something to bear in mind also.

The whole point of seeing the parents of the puppies is to see how they behave and their temperament.

You have seen nervousness, anxiety and social discomfort but are still considering a puppy from the litter...........OP walk away there will be a better fit for our family

Having taught dogs agility for many years I know plenty of dogs from really top notch breeders who have not turned out as expected in a variety of different ways even with the best start. I would say though that you do need to stack the odds in your favour with temperament. We walked away from one litter as although on paper everything was fine the pups didn't engage with us at all and were very aloof. The litter we chose we were mobbed by the puppies when we arrived (they were older - 8 weeks) whilst mum just looked on calmly. They were really confident and curious and we spent more than an hour interacting and engaging with them before making a decision.

When you say you’ve gone through existing contacts that doesn’t guarantee a decent breeder. Health tests done? What experience do they have? How many dogs do they have? Do they own both parents?

I would walk away. Genetics really do matter and there is more than one red flag here

Avoid.

Years ago when I was in my early 20's and not knowledgeable dp and I brought a German shepherd puppy
The breeder had both parents but we could only see them through the front wondow as they were going ballistic barking and lunging at us, he even said the dogs were not friendly to strangers.

Should have run a mile

The puppy, with good training and some luck turned into the most amazing dog ever he dosnt have a mean bone in his body, was bomb proof, friendly, sociable and loved kids.

Training and good socialisation could give you an amazing dog

Genetics could also win out and you might have a very nervous dog

It's a tough call,
What would you do if you has a dog with these issues?

My first GSD was bought from a home where we also couldn’t view the parents as they would have probably eaten us. He was an amazing dog! I would say this was pure luck on my part rather than anything else.

On this one I would pass though. Are they spaniels? Hard to tell from the pic but nervy spaniels are a nightmare.
I wouldn’t want to start with issues before I even begun, in my experience temperament is almost always influenced by genetics. I wouldn’t buy from a line where nervy temperaments pop up anywhere.

I chose my breeder as I fell in love with the mum and dad.

Golden retrievers. Mum immediately brought a ball to my children to play with them and was so affectionate to them, she followed my 4 year old around and was so sweet. Dad was a massive goofball who jumped straight in dhs lap for a hug and didn’t move the whole time, he was such a lovely boy.

They were just like the retrievers I’d owned all my life, big, loving, happy idiots and their pup has been the same.

If they had been nervous, unfriendly etc I’d have run a mile, but they were exactly how a retriever should be.

The pups were all lovely too, all happily running round and loved my children.

We didn’t have a choice with our girl though. She made a beeline for me and wouldn’t leave me. When my children came and sat with me, she was the same, never left us for a second; just wanted to play and cuddle with us, wasn’t distracted for a second by anything else. Dh went to get something from the car and she went to follow him, like “ok, great let’s go then!”

We have had two cockers. Our first came from a highly strung Mum, Dad was pretty chill and he was a nightmare. Reactive, highly strung beyond the normal cocker over excitement. Trainable but to a level. And trust me, we tried everything. Our 2nd cocker, came from super chilled, highly trained parents. Albeit an accidental litter, but she is a dream. The usual cocker go go go, but also easy to settle, easy to train, a dream to take anywhere. Now this could be coincidence, all dogs are different, but we'd be foolish to say genes don't matter.
Either way pup is very, very cute and I could totally understand getting caught up in the need to have her/him..adorable.

Evening all - just thought I’d give you an update.
Last weekend of half term we took the kids up to see the puppy. I’d told them that we needed to look carefully at the mum and dad. Anyway, similar pattern to last time…pups very chilled but mum couldn’t even be in the room with us as she was so anxious, dad was barking everywhere and half sister peed all over the breeder with nerves.

A few days later I was idly scrolling through pets4homes (which I’d normally give a wide berth but bear with me…) and saw a litter not far from us. Went to see them after work and the mum just came up and plonked herself on my lap. Totally different! Pups v active and affectionate, all registered with a decent pedigree (I’d checked this out before I went) and much more diverse gene pool. So, no need to call this a spoiler, but went back the next day to reserve one and we pick him up on Sunday!!!

Was horrible letting the other breeder know (we’d left a bed with him and a toy, so I’d like to think she didn’t think we were stringing her along) and I confess to
Chickening out and saying that circumstances had changed and it wasn’t the right time.

Thank you to everyone for your advice and encouraging me to
go with my gut (the fact I made my OP speaks volumes). Here’s to sleepless nights and bonkers puppies!

Think you did the right thing. Follow your instincts - this is a decision you will have to live with for (hopefully) over a decade. 🐾