A gentle reminder regarding vaccinations before committing to your puppy/breeder

[StrugglingWithThisPuppyLife]

So I’m not a vet nor do I have in depth knowledge of vaccines and this is our first time pup so I don’t actually know enough to have questioned the “professionals” in all this but I just wanted to share my experience … also name changed as tbh, I feel this is probably a reflection of a lack of due diligence on my part and I feel a bit foolish about that.

So - you may not be aware that not all vaccines brands are compatible. So your breeder may use one that your own vet doesn’t. You may then have to restart your puppies vaccine programme.

I knew this could be an issue ahead of collecting our puppy and twice asked the breeder of the brand in case we had to have a back up plan. She said she wouldn’t know until they had been for their first jab. She told me not to worry as they are all compatible and if a vet tells you otherwise they are talking rubbish. So like an idiot I took her advice. Because she ls a breeder and knows what she’s talking about 😳 They were given Lepto 2.

Not one vet I spoke to within a 20 mile radius of us uses this anymore as it’s discontinued and replaced by Lepto 4 giving protection against more strains. They all advised a restart or at a minimum, boosters. Breeders vet was willing to administer second dose of their vaccine however even booking in for a later booster locally was going to massively eat into his socialisation window.

Our boy had his second of restart jabs today and by the time we are out of the vet recommended window of caution (3 more weeks) he will be 4 months and 2 weeks old. In this time while he has been out plenty on our garden, in the car, spent time at houses of friends and family, he hasn’t been able to be “on the ground” elsewhere so to speak. Hasn’t met other dogs. Is having very limited exercise. Can’t get to puppy classes. I have barely left the house other than a weekly run, do some grocery shopping or go to the vets. Also a daily cuddle walk with him which I don’t think we can do anymore as he wriggles too much. He’s bouncing off the walls now and teething so that’s a fun combo and my mental health is having an absolute hammering. I’m aware that how I’m feeling right now is making me prone to the dramatic!!

Yes I could dismiss vets advice and take him out as the risk is probably small however a) I can’t take a risk of making him ill and b) small print of pet insurance states claims could be invalid if we haven’t taken vets advice regarding immunisations. Yes I know they won’t know we’ve ignored that advice but we will and that’s bad enough. So I get I’m maybe being a little over cautious.

So yea - absolutely question your breeder and ask for their vet’s details so you can talk to them and make a back plan before collection. To be honest if we did all this again (which we won’t because so far I’ve not enjoyed an awful lot of the puppy journey) I’d insist on knowing this so I could at least book a provisional restart.

I agree it’s not an easy decision. You can’t titre test for lepto but there are so many strains and I’m aware of so many reactions to ie I won’t give L4.

That's fine, but it's a bit misleading to say up thread you're switching to titre testing when that's not what you're doing.

We worm count and titre test for things covered in dhp vaccination, and don't treat for fleas but we give L4 because they're labs and they drink from and swim in any patch of grotty water given the chance.

Well no it’s not. I won’t be giving routine vaccinations but will titre test to check we are covered for core ones.

From the veterinary medicines directorate the rate of any reaction to lepto 2 is 0.02% and the rate of any reaction to lepto 4 is 0.07% the difference is statistically insignificant. The majority of these reactions are lethargy and a temperature lasting around 24 hours.
The incidence of cases of leptospirosis in dogs has trebled in the last 5 years.
The manufacture of L2 ceased last year and the last available batch expires on the 31st of this month.

I really wish we could trust the science and data. Unfortunately you can go to your vet or try to report side effects yourself and they are often (usually) dismissed as not being from the vaccines.

A collie puppy I owned had a fit 4 hours after vaccination this was not reported by my vet as a possible side effect as the refused to acknowledge it. He never had another fit in his 16 years.

We can not trust the 0.02% figure it is not based on accurate data.

Dogs still get Lepto even if they have had the vaccine. Dogs if picked up early enough can be treated and survive lepto. Interesting to see the dogs that die from lepto having had the vaccines as their owners are not so vigilant to the symptons whereas dogs not vaccinated tend to receive earlier treatment....

It’s a good point OP, thanks. Our pup had L2 at the breeder’s vet and she recommended I do the same for the next one, but my vet doesn’t do it, so he ended up having a full course of L4 as well. (Now a year on, the vet is constantly texting me and emailing me for him get boosters.)

As an aside re how often to vaccinate - my last dog only had his first full set of vaccinations. When he was 6, he had to be admitted to a veterinary hospital to have something removed from his oesophagus. They tested his immunity to all the standard diseases in order to admit him. After 6 years, he still had full immunity to everything.

That's why didn't have my last pup vaccinated by the breeder.
You should take puppy to the vets anyway within a week of bringing him home. Get the vaccine done there and then.

Mine didn’t come home until about 12 weeks. That would mean waiting a long time before she could go out.

My dog is 12, almost 13 and we didn't know about the vaccinations when she was a puppy. We wanted to go with our chosen vet and because of this we had to restart her vaccinations and set her back a few weeks with regards to socialising and I do think this has affected her through her life. Should we be in this position again I would finish the vaccinations with the breeders chosen vet, if local, and then move to our chosen vet afterwards.

I found this out from Mumsnet and it’s very useful to know. My pup’s vaccinations are compatible with the ones my vet provides thankfully, but just to say, you can do the 2nd round after 2 weeks - you don’t need to wait 4 - and then after the second round you can take them out after one week - doesn’t need to be 2 or more. Both my vet and puppy trainer said misconceptions about how long to wait can have a very negative impact on socialisation.

It depends on the brand. The most common brand in the UK nobivac requires the two lepto vaccines to be 4 weeks apart.

Also your sort of at the mercy of the vet in front of you at the time regards timescales ... If a vets tells you timescales for breaks between each jab and says "we heavily recommend you don't go out until ..." what else can you do? I get that it's probably highly unlikely he'll hey I'll if we take him out tomorrow but if he did I would never forgive myself.

So I've mainly done this thread not to ask opinions on whether my actions now are correct (thankfully whenever we've met people our and about or he's been to people's houses he's been a lovely friendly chap so no concerns yet. Also he's met some pooches from my arms and just wagged his tail like crazy so seems keen to get to know them properly) because as I say, I can only go by my vet's advice, but more to encourage others who are early on the path to have the conversation early doors.

Following this thread with interest. We have just had a litter of pups and doing some research on weather to have them vaccinated or not before they go to their forever homes. Looking at some breeders forums, quite a few seem to leave the vac up to the new owners as some vets use a different type. You then have to call around to find a local vet who administers the same type of vac , if you can find one . Bearing this in mind ,would you expect to have the puppy to be vaccinated and not buy them if they weren’t? As an owner or any expectant owner , would it be easier to not have the pups vaccinated and then take them for vet check /vac in 48hr when you get home . I only ask this as we are on the fence at the moment and want what’s best for our puppies and their future owners . As with most things in life , the cost is passed on to the new owners, but I’d feel awful if the new owners had to start from scratch again with the cost of a new course of jabs , The waiting time and most importantly the poor puppy being subjected to more trauma. What are your thoughts. Many thanks .

A good breeder would have thought of all of this before their bitch even became pregnant.

Shocking behaviour (and I say that as a breeder)!!!!

This wasn’t a planned pairing , so I could have terminated it or continued it . I chose to continue with the pregnancy, my choice, my responsibility. As such I’m trying to do the best I can in the given situation . I’m not a breeder and was just trying go get some opinions on what people feel . I agree that all this information would have been needed if it was planned. But it wasn’t. I thank you for your opinion but saying someone has “ shocking behaviour “ is hardly helpful . I understand that there are many unwanted puppies in the world and you may feel I’ve just added to them but I can assure you that I care about my dogs and only want the best for them . Again thank you for your comment.

If you wanted what’s best for them you wouldn’t have allowed this pregnancy. Get your dogs neutered.

Could you not have booked him in for a second jab with the same vet as the breeder? That's what we did

we were advised by the breeder not to get them neutered till later as this could affect their health. This could affect their spine . Which is why we waited.

We could have however our vet still heavily recommended a booster as in their view even the double dose of the old vaccine wasn’t sufficient (Lepto 2). By the time that booster could be booked in we would only have gained a week and our boy would have had an awful lot of jabs.

I think in our case the part that made me cross was I was proactive in asking our breeder to find out/pass on vet info so I could find out, what the vaccine would be so we could take action way before we got him home. I think it was this polite refusal to work with us and discounting my concerns that pissed me off a bit too.

@Thedogfather2
Purely as a puppy parent I’d like you to be open with your prospective parents very early doors so you can have the conversation and see what will be best for their circumstances so their new puppy can be out and about as soon as they can. The cost of the puppy I guess should reflect this too. Guessing you have a vet who can help make each transition smoothest?

Neither of my last two puppies were vaccinated when I got them. The breeder stopped doing it, because people were having trouble finding compatible vaccines and having to start again. The first was back in 2021, so it's not a new problem.
I was made aware of this and booked them in for first vaccines a couple of days after bringing them home.

That’s very helpful thank you

thank you for your reply . Yes I will be completely up front with all the prospective parents when they come to view the pups . All paperwork will be given to them , chips transferred and a puppy pack . All will be vet checked before leaving and they can bring the puppy back if not happy or if circumstances change . Also 4 weeks free insurance. Does that sound ok ? Still on the fence re jabs though.

@Thedogfather2 Presumably you'll have homes lined up before the puppies are old enough to leave. Why don't you ask each owner if they want their puppy vaccinated or not?

ETA Can you add some food to your puppy package? Or is that in the 'puppy pack'?

We’ve had some interest and viewings . A supply of food will be in the puppy pack along with a scent blanket , favourite toy , paperwork etc