Startle reflex and biting, end of the road?

[CerealPosterHere]

Friend has a lovely 4yo show cocker. Really nice dog. They’ve had it from a 2yo, private sale. Dog resource guarded when they got it, they did consult a behaviourist at the time and that’s improved. Was only growling, not biting.

however he has a startle reflex and if he’s asleep under the table or on the sofa and someone next to him shifts position his instinct is to go from fast asleep to sinking his teeth into the nearest part of them. It’s a bite and release with no shaking, no sustained bite. Never needed stitches but does break the skin, there is blood and multiple punctures.

friend wants to persevere, is better at monitoring where he is. Her partner is at the end of his tether and wants the dog pts. Spaniel aid and two other rescues have turned him down saying you basically can’t train him out a startle reflex. Vet was very negative last week and said if it was their dog they’d pts. He is on herbal anxiety meds, vet didn’t suggest any other medication but friend didn’t ask.

just asking for advice really about any potential options we haven’t thought of? Rescue? Residential training camp? She is beside herself. He’s a lovely dog when awake, intelligent, does rally, very affectionate. He’s neutered which I guess if he’s anxious may not have been the best but was done before they got him. Shame he’s not a working cocker as I think he’d make a good gundog.

Can't help with proper advice but why is he allowed to sleep in places where he can be startled by people. Surely make him sleep in his bed so that this doesn't happen.

They are right. It is what it is. The only way is management. It’s quite common in some breeds (not usually spaniels). My last dog had it although not as severe. We are an adult only house so it was fine.

Really he needs to be taught to sleep on a bed. That can be done by blocking the furniture and making the bed valuable. This is part of management. We used to verbally wake our dog before moving so she was aware. It became so ingrained we do it with our new one although she is absolutely fine - just snuggles in closer.

I’d want a pain trial too as a minimum. It can be worsened by pain. That’s so easy to do and costs little. Other than that it’s management or PTS.

Yeah, I do agree if he was mine I’d be training him to sleep on a mat/crate away from the sofa and table and that has been talked about but doesn’t seem to be happening 🤷‍♀️

The vet doesn’t think there’s anything physically wrong. Is a pain trial something which can be done anyway just in case something is being missed? He did have a slight back leg issue but went to mctimmony and hydrotherapy and i think has been cleared now.

My first greyhound did this. We just ensured to never startle her awake, never approach her when asleep but call her to come to us, and she had designated sleeping areas where she wouldn’t be disturbed. She lived out her life fine with us. It was okay as we don’t have kids, and if anyone visited she would stay upstairs as she was anxious around strangers.

The problem with a vet check alone is that adrenaline masks pain. It’s very difficult to spot small but significant problems. A pain trial is medication for a few weeks to see if things improve.

Dog's that react like this will react wherever they are sleeping. The only difference will be that instead of turning and biting, they run and bite. They might snap out of it before they make contact, but the issue will still be there. Unless you lock him in a crate there is absolutely no way to guarantee this won't happen.

Vet's don't say 'if it was my dog I would PTS' unless they absolutely mean it. It is not the sort of advice they offer lightly - and the fact that SA turned the dog down, tells me this is a serious problem. Dog should be PTS - I absolutely would if it were mine. Three charities and a vet are telling the owners what to do - they should take that advice.

She thinks if it was just her and the dog it would be ok as she is more aware of where the dog is, talking to him, etc before moving. Partner isn’t as on board at all and says he shouldn’t have to live on edge in his own home. He would have the dog pts tomorrow which I think is not helping the Situation.

Sorry but that’s not the case at all. I’ve known many dogs with this and they’ve all lived very safe lives with management. The only one I know who ran and bit was one who was found to have a brain tumour.

Is this not a very natural reaction for some animals? The solution would be to sleep in a crate? Away from anyone it can bite?

I'm so sorry your friend is going through this. I'd suggest she researches Cocker Rage or Sudden Onset Aggression in dogs. We had exactly the same situation with our working cocker. 99.9% of the time he was a lovely, friendly, well-behaved dog and we absolutely adored him. He started doing exactly the same when he was startled awake, he would bite the closest person to him. We started shaking bags of treats from a distance to wake him up, but one night I did this and he launched himself from flat out asleep on the sofa to biting my collarbone. If I'd been sat down it would have been my face. As he got older these episodes went from few and far between to happening more often. The heartbreaking thing was he didn't know what he'd done when fully awake and would be wagging his tail and snuggling up to the person he'd just bitten. Unfortunately there is nothing you can do as you can't predict when it's going to happen and your friend's DH is right, you can't live in fear of your dog. Ours eventually bit my DH so badly he needed stitches, we consulted our vet and they said there was nothing that could be done so we took the heartbreaking decision to have our beautiful boy pts.

The heartbreaking thing was he didn't know what he'd done when fully awake and would be wagging his tail and snuggling up to the person he'd just bitten

this is just like my friends dog. Bites, lets go and is then wagging his tail and being friendly. I’m sorry you had this too.

They should have him in a crate imo. But they might also want to look into zoopharmacognosy.

Yes we're on greyhound no4 who does this. None of the others did but we knew it was common.

It's bloody horrible.

Luckily we're good at managing it with a certain set of rules but if I had young children then the risk would be too high.

I've had reactive dogs and sleep startle is very different as like everyone says they don't know they're doing it, so not something that can be 'trained' just managed.

I think the biggest issue isn't weather the dog should be PTS or not.
It's weather this can be managed and if all people in the dogs home are fully committed to managing it.

I think your friend needs to have a good look at her relationship. What's worse, loosing the dog or the man?

Please don't conflate Rage Syndrome or Idiopathic aggression with this situation as they are two separate things. (I was a dog behaviourist for 30 years.) Rage syndrome typically comes to light in the first 18 months to 2 years, has no known cure and there is NO trigger which causes the aggression. The dog can be perfectly normal and then bite for no reason, most often their eyes go trance-like immediately before biting. For obvious reasons, they are extremely dangerous and most are PTS.

In the case of the OP's friend, the dog's aggression is triggered by being startled awake.
My take on this would be that the situation isn't going to improve but it is manageable. I suspect your friend, whose perseverance I admire, may have to make a choice between her commitment to her dog and her commitment to her partner!

I do suspect at some point it’s going to be a real life case of “it’s me or the dog”.

98% of the time it is managed. There was a bite last week and previously was six months ago, so it’s not frequent. But still not nice .

Quite honestly they are letting their dog down by not managing it. It is something that can be managed very well. If there were children in the home then I’d be saying entirely different things!

Rage is entirely different, extremely rare and now thought to be an epilepsy form.

Does anyone like being woken up? 2 of my ddogs absolutely love being stroked and rubbed when asleep... Dc know this. Dc also know to disturb another of our ddogs is a definite no... Myself having nearly lost a few toes when I dared to stretch my foot out next to her.. That ddog hasn't put a paw wrong in 11 +years...
Ddog sleeps away from anything/anyone else... Honestly how difficult is that to exercise??

Off on a sideline, but there is no reason why a show cocker couldn't be trained as a gundog. He might not be as driven as a working cocker (good thing, imo) but most of the genes will still be there. I volunteered for a different gundog rescue organisation and show strains were frequently trained to a standard where they could work on a shoot, by another volunteer.

Honestly if anyone knows of anyone who wants a gundog project or a gundog rescue which might have him please let me know.

I I fully agree with previous posts that crate training for every nap is a necessity.
However I also think your friend needs to ask for a second opinion from another vet if the one they saw said that but didn't offer any other solutions. There are medications that might help with aggressive behaviour. I wouldn't want a dog PTS unless there was nothing left to try.

Sorry, but this is disgrace.

You do not offer a dog to strangers online. If you or a friend wishes to rehome their dog, they should do it through proper channels - not via social media, mumsnet, gumtree, pets4homes or whatever other sites exist.

The fact that multiple charities have refused to take him, because of his condition, means that rehoming him is just dangerous. Have your friend PTS the dog - it would almost certainly end in less tears than trying to fob him off onto strangers on mumsnet.

When I said someone who might want a gundog project I’m more thinking of someone who already has a lot of dogs. Many people with working dogs have them living outside in kennels and work them every day. Maybe that sort of home might suit him more, I don’t know. And then maybe the startle reflex wouldn’t be an issue 🤷🏻‍♀️. I feel cross about the previous owner who I suspect was aware of this issue and not only palmed the dog off but charged a significant amount of money!