Golden retriever breeder - have I done the right checks?

[Year6dramallama]

Looking for GR as our first family dog. Am registered on Champ Dogs and approaching breeders through that. Have found one I think I like and I just want to verify that I've done enough due diligence.

Sire and dam are KC registered with hip, elbow and eye scores, plus GR PLA 1 and 2 and gonioscopy. Dam has hips of 14 (7/7), clear of everything else except gonioscopy of 1. Sire has hips of 4 (2/2) and clear of everything. I've checked these on the KC registration site. Inbreeding COI for this mating is 11.8% which seems high.

Breeder has 3 dogs, mum, grandma and mum's half sister. She also owns several other breeding bitches which live in local homes with her family. When she has a pregnant bitch she brings her to her home for 3 months - last month of pregnancy and the 8 weeks the puppies are with mum. Then the mum goes back to her regular home. She breeds max 3 litters per dog, when dog is aged 2-6. Only breeds more than 1 litter if previous pregnancy went well. Puppies can be seen with mum and she accepts multiple visits from prospective owners. She sent me a quite detailed questionnaire, asked for photos of my home and garden, and called me to discuss our situation and tell me how she raises pups. She follows a detailed socialisation programme and runs a private instagram page which is only available to prospective owners. She only advertises on Champ Dogs.

She takes deposit at 4 weeks once owner has chosen puppy.

Does this sound OK? I really liked her, she spent ages on the phone with me, talked very passionately about the breed and her dogs in particular, had lots of questions about our work, local area, home, why we want a golden etc. I am so nervous of being duped into getting from a puppy mill, I suppose I'm.worried about falling for a spiel.

Breeder has 3 dogs, mum, grandma and mum's half sister. She also owns several other breeding bitches which live in local homes with her family.

Run.

Thanks @LandSharksAnonymous so this is the biggest red flag or other things stand out too? Trying to establish what is needed beyond health checks and seeing pups with mum. So many other breeders I've been in touch with have had no questions so the questionnaire, requesting photos of my house etc seemed reassuring.

Sorry pressed send too soon!

A few minor things (in the grand scheme of the most disgusting example of breeding I’ve heard about in a while)

1. No dog should ever have more than two litters. Ever.
2. No one should be breeding multiple bitches - a good breeder won’t have more than one litter a year. Most have way less. If she’s breeding properly, it’ll half kill her so it’s just not feasible to breed regularly and do it well and look after her other dogs adequately.
3. COI is unacceptably high.
4. You don’t mention elbow scores, only that they are done? What are they? They must be 0:0.
5. Heart examine? Both parents should have done that IMO. It’s not a requirement, but goldies are increasingly prone to heart issues
6. PRA should be done prior to every litter (I.e two tests over their lifetime)

BUT, the biggest red flag: no one should be getting a dog pregnant and removing its from its home to give birth at a more convenient location for them. That’s just sick. It doesn’t matter how much she’s vetted you, or how careful she seems to be…she doesn’t give two shits about her dogs, and you don’t want a puppy from her. Honestly, I felt pretty sick just reading that. I couldn’t imagine making my current breeding dog leave her home where she’s happy and safe, and make her live with my sister for three months, have a litter, and then return home.

Honestly, I can see why you were sort of taken in - I’m sure a lot of people would think she sounds wonderful, but no ethical breeder who cares about their dogs would ever do what she’s doing. She’s a disgrace.

Thanks @LandSharksAnonymous this is why I posted - good to get some straight talking. It seems like there are so many things to look out for and if one box is ticked another is a huge red flag!

Glad I could help!! 🙂

ChampDogs and KC are great, but just being KC registered or having a litter on Champ Dogs doesn’t mean a breeder is any good.

Lots of breeders are a bit like a car salesman - flash and exciting on the surface, and they seem great and say all the right things, but when you dig they lack any substance or ethics. It sounds awful…but you need to do exactly as you did - look for the bits that don’t add up, and get a sense check.

Ultimately, you may well have to compromise - as much as it pains me to say it, finding the perfect breeder can be really hard - so you need to figure out what your red lines are. Or, you can wait - potentially a year+ for that perfect breeder & puppy. Personally, I would always wait as I don’t think you can put a price/time on the perfect puppy/breeder.

As I said, FWIW I do think a lot of people would have thought ‘oh she sounds great’ - I come at it from a slightly different perspective, as I breed and spend a lot of time with other breeders, so spotting dodgy ones (even on paper) is second nature at this point! Good luck in your quest for a pup - Goldies are amazing dogs 🙂

Yeah it's tough finding someone. I wrote to the golden retriever society for the south east and they recommended a Facebook group as they don't keep breeder details. I would usually.avoid Facebook etc as places to find breeders! It's a minefield. I found one with great health scores, good COI (below breed average), mum, grandma and grandad are their family dogs and they don't seem to breed morenthan once a year but I got put off as they want a deposit just to get on the list and I've heard that is a red flag. Gah!

You need to look further afield not rely on what’s in your area , this puppy is potentially going to be a member of your family for the next 12-15 yrs .

I'm not - I've been in touch with breeders all over England. I wrote the the south east society because that's where I'm based and they all seem to be region specific.

I got my from champdogs, took ages researching. All seemed very good, property was ok, puppies and mum were seen together and had the run of the kitchen and lounge. Kitchen was a bit chewed but to be expected I suppose. Reviews were good. Tests etc all good. Co efficient was low but I believe this is a complicated subject area.
Breeder also had grandma, mum, daughter….
Hips and elbow scores were fine (like yours). Mum was a therapy dog, dad was show. Had to pay a deposit.

It was only afterwards I asked a vet and he said it’s relatively easy to fake the paperwork, puppy birth certs and so on.

I also found that the breeder didn’t actually own the house. It was rented and the landlord was hunting for her due to unpaid rent and the state of the property!

She kept in touch for awhile after and when I had puppy blues she said she would take him back (not that I could have, I loved him he was a hell of a handful though). Pup was ok health wise, he’s 14 now. He was a crazy puppy though, high energy, hip dysplasia and torn cruciate age 7. Arthritis from then on which has cost me thousands! He is the best dog, loveliest nature. He’s been into nursing homes and hospitals, residents /patients loved him.

The one thing that stands out for me in your case is mum getting pregnant and then have to move homes…I couldn’t be without my dog for three months. Why does she do that…

I’ll rescue next time, (if there’s a next time).

There is a Facebook page I would highly recommend, it is called Golden Retrievers-Sourcing Reputable Breeders UK.
There are loads of guides on there to help around health tests, things to look out for etc as well as admin posting when litters become available.

Goldies are just the best dogs but they are big and strong so you really want to do everything you can to get one from a reputable breeder, as you clearly are.

Also check out Landsharks AMA Post!

Thanks @GingerRuby I've joined that group - it's the one the GR society suggested too.

Anyone breeding should be breeding to better the gene pool. The bitches with other families is a huge red flag as it means that they are breeding to make money. Full stop. No matter how good their tests and scores. I would also want the breeder to be keeping a puppy for themselves, that would ensure that they take the greatest care and interest in the welfare and care of that litter and not just churning them out for profit. You will probably have to compromise on some things but I would walk away from this breeder.

Hello, quick update. I got a recommendation on the group recommended above (which the GS Society also recommended). Spoke with the breeder for a very long time, health scores and COI are ALL good (clear and/or below breed average for the relevant conditions and cpmplete genetic testing) - have checked on the KC site. The breeder has had goldens for 30+ years and this is her 4th ever litter so it's an occasional thing for her not a way of making a living. Lots of other reassuring things such as visits, process etc. Thanks for the feedback @landsharksanonymous and everyone on this thread. Has been very helpful and I'm feeling much more confident about what to look for.

Brilliant news @Year6dramallama! Hope you love your new addition!!!!

Well done for doing your research properly. I wish everyone did! Enjoy your puppy 😊

Oh brilliant, fab news, looking forward to the photos!

Excellent news , we will expect photos .