How much of our dog can we hack off

[Collaborate]

10 year old chocolate Labrador in today for x-rays of tumours and larger biopsy samples to be taken. An easy to reach tumour by her elbow is being removed.

We've (whole family) already agreed that if there's a tumour in her leg, which we've been told will cause leg to have to be removed, that we won't put her through that. Also if it turns out to be type 3 mast cell cancer we'll get her home and give her all the love we can until the time comes, which won't be long.

Where we might have to make another decision is in two areas:

1. Cancer of unknown type on her front paw. To remove that will likely result in losing her two internal toes, leaving her with two outer toes.
2. A concentration of mast cell tumours is on her chest - we can feel them under the skin. If that is too close to the bone I was told this morning they may be incapable of being removed without taking some rib.

Quality of life and limitation of distress is what is guiding us now.

So, my question is, has anyone had a dog lose a couple of toes from their front paws, or lose a couple of ribs, and if so, how much of a normal life could they lead afterwards?

Honestly I'd want more information before doing any surgery. If the cancer is of the same type it's presumably spread? If so I would need to have a good idea of prognosis before doing anything.

So sorry.

Our late dog had a toe removed from a front paw but it was an outer one , didn’t seem to make any difference to him . I agree with the pp that more investigations , maybe a Ct/ MRI might give you more information. It would seem a shame to put poor dog through surgery for there to be a dire prognosis . Best wishes .

I would want biopsy results from all locations before making any decisions.

I would not take toes off if there is a tumour on an elbow that would ideally be amputated, as the elbow will continue to deteriorate. I would also never be removing ribs. It may be technically possible, but for what end, especially in a dog with multiple tumour locations.

Toes on their own. Fine.
One leg removed. On its own. Fine.
Ribs. Not fine.
All/some of that combination. Not likely to be fine.

But I left clinical work a long time ago, and I have a older fashioned concept of what is acceptable vs what is being done for owner rather than pet.

I’m so sorry. Has the vet advised? it sounds like it could be a lot of surgery and healing time.
I had to google Labrador rib removal, seems quite specialist.
I’d want to know if there was cancer before going ahead, if that’s possible.
What a decision to have to make…

Thanks for the replies.

We've had the x-ray results and it's looking good. No tumours in the leg (so it seems it's the paw tumour that gives her pain when walking), and the chest tumours are close to the surface so no complications removing them. Looks like the elbow tumour (near the elbow but floating) and the chest tumours might be removed today. We'll find out if either of those are type 3, and then await the full biopsy identifying the type of cancer on the paw.

It's the best news we could have hoped for at this stage.

So sorry OP, we've got a similar although less aggressive situation here. Waiting for biopsy results to confirm the level which initially came back as low grade but seems to be growing rapidly. The vet said the scans didn't show any had spread to organs so we hope we caught it fast but waiting for the results to confirm before an op on Thursday. Ours is near the crease of the top of the back leg which will make running impossible without pulling stitches, so I am worrying about stopping her doing that (she's already pulled put the 2 stitches from the biopsy after removing the plaster overnight hours after getting home). Not sure I've given any advice but here for a hand hold as someone having similar news if you'd like it.

Sorry to hear you're in the same boat. They never stop acting like puppies, wanting to run around whatever the consequences.

I suspect she'll still lose two of her toes, which I know will cause an issue but not be the end of the world.

As ever with cancer we'll be forever on the lookout.

We had a lovely golden retriever who at 6 had her first mast cell tumor removed from her back leg. Then a year later another 2, one on the back of her leg near her paw, and the other on her side.
We spotted them early, they were not attached to anything vital and she recovered quickly.
Then at 8 we were on holiday and noticed a lump on her chest, it grew rapidly and was removed as soon as we got home. This time it came back- worse. Recovery took longer and by now she was feeling poorly. It spread quickly and painfully.

The vet said they could try various treatments and further operations to prolong her life.
We had her put to sleep- what sort of a life would it have been for her? Constantly visits to the vet (who by now she hated) , off her food (meals had always been her favorite thing) limited exercise...

Just because a vet "can" do something, does not mean they "should ".
Looking back we should have let her go sooner, better a week too soon than a day too late.

I'm sorry OP, it's a horrible decision to make.

We had similar and she had another three good years. We didn't do chemotherapy but she was on long-term loxicom/metacam, which slowed down any growth. I'd do to again.

Hi OP, sorry to hear about your dog, we had a dog growing up that had a middle toe removed and it didn’t seem to make any difference to his mobility but I appreciate it’s not two. Sending love to you and your dog this must be horrible

I’m a big believer in not letting my dog suffer. When our Goldie had cancer, we gave her lots of love, care and let her go peacefully.

I think sometimes the vets want to do too much, just because they can.

Sending massive hugs to you @Collaborate it is such a difficult time when your best friend is sick.

Just sending a hug. Beautiful dog💐x

Thanks for the perspective you give. It's my dog's age that is making me question the benefit of all treatments. I think if the only thing after today is loss of two inside toes we might be okay, but I'm under no illusions about the risk of its return. If we have another year with her that's as much as we can ask for. If her can get rid of it all this time round we won't won't her to go through treatment if it comes back.

I'm sorry to hear this.

With dogs, there's a long period when it's not appropriate to let them go. Then there's an in between time when it's OK but not necessarily the only thing to do. Then finally there's a stage when it's the only responsible thing to do. I tend to think that if you wait till the last stage you're effectively saying that you're going to wait for your dog's life to become unbearable, and why would you do that? I think it's better to let them go when they're still mostly having a good life, especially if they're already a good age. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they wish they'd waited longer.

You sound like a lovely guardian with your dog's best interests at heart. I hope the operation goes well and gives you some clarity on what to do for the best.

I'm sorry to hear this. I have PTS 3 dogs and 3 horses when the time has come and the only time I have felt great regret is when I feel I left it later than I should have done. Dogs don't think like humans, they are happy or not and they often hide their discomfort. It's a really difficult decision, but one that is better to be made early rather than later, especially if intervention will cause them pain. 10 is a good age for a lab x

I personally wouldn't put an animal through a surgery unless there was a clear benefit. I'm so sorry.

Would you not think a clear benefit would include an extra 12 months or more of life lived happily, pain free, and okay mobility.

Just thought I'd pop back for a quick update on this. Daisy had the tumour removed from her paw in early February (they were taking a large sample for biopsy and realised they could remove the entire tumour without removing toes). There were no tumours in her leg. After around 2-3 weeks with her paw in bandage she was able to walk around quite happily and resumed her group daytime walks with her friends.

An ultrasound scan showed no tumours other than the ones close to the surface we knew about so we got very hopeful. Biopsies taken of two new lumps showed them to be fatty lumps only. So she went in for surgery on 13 March to remove chest tumour and lip tumour. At that stage she had no other known tumours. I started to think she'd live another year.

Operation was on the Thursday. She was starting to eat okay and taking it easy on her walks that weekend but early Monday morning I came downstairs to blood and fecal matter all over the kitchen. She was drinking water then going outside 10 minutes later to eject it with a dose of blood through her back passage. Also blood in her urine and vomit.

She was admitted to the vet hospital as we wondered for a while whether it was being caused by her rheumacam pain relief. Put on a drip and we were told that if it was the pain relief causing it she should start to improve. On the Tuesday we realised there was no improvement. but there was no improvement. We'd managed to get the kids back home and we made the decision to say goodbye. Turns out that between the ultrasound and the operation some tumours had grown very rapidly.

She was only in hospital for 24 hours and was on morphine so we hope not in pain. We were all with her at the end and you could tell she was happy with that. She managed to lift her head for us all and wag her tail.

It's still raw, though time is healing. They break your heart don't they?

That sounds so traumatic for you and your Dog. I am so sorry you have lost her. Thank you for the honest update.

I’m so sorry. Once you’ve got multiple tumours it’s really game over very quickly. It doesn’t make the decision any easier though.

So sorry to hear your update.

We have just had a Mast Cell Tumor confirmed on our dog and going through the agonising decision on how to treat him.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/the_doghouse/5312935-mast-cell-tumor?reply=143523485