Would you MRI or PTS without diagnosis?

[Indecisivelurcher]

13yo greyhound x, in pain, seems to be his neck. Possible diagnosis is slipped disc pressing on nerve, or chance it could be something like a tumor pressing.

Treatment for disc would be pain meds and rest and hope it improves. If it's really bad we wouldn't consider surgery I don't think. Likewise if it's a tumor we would be looking at managing pain and when to call it a day, not surgery. This is our thinking at his age and with other health considerations including ibd, some arthritis, and a heart murmur.

The only way to really know which it is and how bad it is to do an MRI. That would involve a general anaesthetic and cost £2.5k. We don't have insurance at this point. It's not just the money though.

My issue I think is, we are trying pain relief now but I'm not sure it's going well. It's only day 2 though so will give it more time. But if it doesn't conclusively make him feel happier, would you decide to pts WITHOUT doing the MRI? Or would you want the MRI as a way of knowing you're making the right decision?

If my friend recognises this, I'll definitely need a stowford at the quiz please.

I'm expecting most people would say it's ok to pts if pain not managed, but its the deciding that without a definite diagnosis that feels hard. We're not there yet I'm just preparing myself.

There's no point to the MRI. 13 is a great age for a greyhound. PTS. Best wishes.

For a 13yo greyhound unfortunately id PTS if the dog wasn’t better after pain meds and conservative treatment. Not an easy decision though I understand.

Our greyhound went at 13. Her back legs gave out entirely and the vet thought it was likely a blood clot. We had her pts the same day. The lady at greyhound rescue always drummed into me “Better a week early than a day too late”.

Would an X-ray not show the issue at all? I am just thinking light sedation over GA and an MRI, seems like sledgehammer to crack a nut. They X-rayed a horse of mine to reveal disc issues way back. I showed us what we needed.
I was brought up with the mantra of ‘better a week early than a minute too late’. My dad always said, never let your pets suffer and it was the last act of absolute love.
I might want to discuss the X-ray, if it’s an option, otherwise would consider PTS.
Sending you much love. 13 is a good age for a Grey x

Not for a greyhound of this age.

I personally wouldn't put a 13yr old greyhound x through a general anaesthetic. Speak to the vet if different pain meds can be tried see if they help with rest. If not then you need to do what's best for your friend. I also go with better a week early than a day late. I think you deserve 2 stowfords at the quiz. All the best

I'm a vet... if the test result isn't going to change the treatment, then it's just money down the drain tbh. Some people might be in a position to spend 2.5k without a thought and it might make them feel better to have that extra information, and that's fine too. But in your case, please don't feel guilty at all about not doing it.

I'm sorry you are in this position. It's so hard isn’t it.

Our almost 12 year old Greyhound suddenly lost the use of his back legs. Literally just went from under him. The vet suspected an issue with his spine- he gave us a choice of mri or pts. I was devastated and heartbroken but we had him pts. It didn’t seem right to subject him to a trip to another vet for mri when I knew he was too old for surgery. Vet agreed surgery wouldn’t be the right option and said he wouldn’t have mentioned pts if he didn’t think it was the right thing to do. I also subscribe to the week too early than a day too late.
I am sorry to say that if the pain cannot be managed I would pts. 13 is a great age for a Greyhound x

I’m so sorry to hear this. I think if PTS as PPs have said it’s not likely to change the outcome and 13years is such a good life - I know that sounds clumsy of me. What I really mean is that time with our dogs is never long enough. But if they’re suffering and are elderly (even if they’re plodding along with pain relief) then I’d not want to keep prolonging that.

I hope you’re managing. I know you’re giving them all the love and care at the moment 💐

Bless you. I was in a very similar position about 10 years ago; my beloved Pug slipped a disc in her neck and had many other ailments. She wasn't really that old, but being a Pug and all the health issues that bestow them, she had many surgeries under her belt. She was almost blind and very hard of hearing. She'd also had a lifetime of skin issues and the discomfort that those issues bring. At this point, I decided that her quality of life was so bad, there was no point in trying to elongate it, so I pts. I have not regretted it whatsoever. The pain of losing your best friend never gets any easier, but I can put my hand on my heart and know I let her go before she suffered any more. Even though I was insured, I was not prepared to put her through any more surgery. X

I think you don't need the MRI to guide your next steps. If your dog responds to pain meds and you think the pain is under control and your dog has a good quality of life, then it doesn't really matter if its a slipped disc or tumour. Equally, if your dog is still in pain, then it doesn't affect your decision if the MRI shows a tumour or a slipped disc as their quality of life is poor and all treatment options are off the table (the pain meds and rest because you've tried that and the pain isnt controlled, and the operation or cancer because you've ruled them out because of his age and health conditions). So I think I'd try the vet again to see if there's other or higher doses of pain meds, but if that doesn't work and your dog is in pain and miserable, then PTS. I'm sorry you're in this position, dogs life's are too short relative to ours.

The pain meds he's on at the mo are making him behave quite drunk, so that in itself is a problem. But I'm hoping his body needs to acclimatise to them. The vet suggested a 6-8 week course. Which is quite a lot to put him through if he's not happy on them. Fingers crossed. This seems sudden. This thread is me trying to face up to things. I might go cry now!

@Indecisivelurcher Your lovely Grey has reached a grand age for a large dog like a Greyhound.

We had a smaller Lurcher who at approx 12 began to limp slightly.{she was an RSPCA girl so her exact DOB was unknown}

It wasn't arthritis as I had ''hoped'' but far more serious osteosarcoma.

It was detected very early, the pathology report said amputation could be done.

However the chief vet {who loves Lurchers and Greys} said when I asked her to be absolutely honest said

''If she was my dog, I'd take her home, you have a few weeks left, give her {prescribed} pain meds, give her treats and spoil her and get her PTS when her limp worsens or she begins to cough.

We did exactly that.

It almost caused me to have an emotional breakdown as she was my first dog and a complete soul mate.

But her passing at home was easy.

I'd look for home euthanasia- it's far less stressful for the animal, when the pain is no longer managed and the quality of life isn't there.

It's tough.

This is what a very experienced vet said to me, too, to factor in what is right for the beloved pet {soul mate}- especially when they get to older age.

Their welfare might not include operations and wearing restrictive post op collars &c.

However, it has to be on a case by case basis.. My vet said ''your dog isn't a good patient, she hates being away from you in a busy hospital environment''-some dogs are much more stoic at being in a veterinary hospital with the staff caring for them.

If painkillers aren't working then yes, I'd PTS at this age.

We attach human emotions to animals. They don't look at life like we do. All their world is, in the here and now

OP we had a quite similar situation with our 12ish year old (rescue) lurcher. Different issues but vet had suspicion of the things it could be, none of them great news or likely to be operable. He said there was of course a possibility mri might show something that was in fact resolvable by surgery but said he couldn’t guarantee a great outcome or recovery from surgery due to age. We didn’t do the MRI, managed with steroids until I felt he was starting to just seem sad. I knew I was doing the right thing and then I had a major wobble of guilt after about everything. But now with a clearer mind I know we did the right things. Elderly dogs shouldn’t - I think - be put through confusing treatment that makes them suffer. And there’s no guilt or shame in not spending a huge sum on the off chance of maybe just managing to buy a few more months / maybe a year of questionable quality. Good luck to you and I hope you have some lovely moments left with your boy.

Is it Tramadol he's on currently for pain relief?
You could try Gabapentin/Paracetamol and a NSAID. I'd also suggest CBD oil and paste and PEA is great for back/nerve conditions.
That said, if his pain isn't managed pretty soon then yes, I'd PTS rather than put through further investigation.
Thoughts are with you, it's never easy.

My vet made me feel dreadful for declining an MRI for my 14yo dog a couple of years ago, when she'd started having regular seizures and wasn't responding to meds. We did blood tests etc, which ruled out most things, so the MRI was to confirm the vets suspicion of a tumour on the brain. They'd already said that the best they could offer was more anti-seizure meds, regardless of the diagnosis, as, at her age, she wouldn't be a candidate for surgery, but the meds were making her doubly incontinent and like a zombie. I tried the meds for a couple of weeks, realised we were all just miserable as she wasn't enjoying life and was still having 3-4 massive seizures a day, so I chose to PTS, which I know was the right decision for her, but my vet was dreadful about it (I now have a new dog and a new vet!).

It's gabapentin + paracetamol he's on.

I would PTS. 13 is a grand age for a greyhound. It is always a tough call to make but is the kindest and most selfless thing you can do for them. Dogs at the end of life don’t want the testing and the prodding and the poking and the meds trials. They don’t know why they’re put through it. They want comfort and peace and to be pain and stress free.

Another vet and if it's not going to change the treatment plan then what's the point of spending the money and putting him through it.
Worth asking your vet about other pain relief options . Is there a reason he can't have an nsaid ? There might be but worth asking .
We have recently had a lot of success with a very very low dose of ketamine , it's a new protocol that seems really effective in some cases with no side effects, worth asking .

@JBJ We lost our old lad just before Christmas. Also seizures. Once a week with longer and longer recovery, anxiety at night, night wakings, constant neurological blips and wobbles. Every day is no life - I know you know, but that vet was very wrong and you did the right thing. I made myself remember my password and sign in because I couldn't not respond to you.

OP - I send you so much love. We've loved and lost greys here. They're leggy diamonds. I hope these next few days have some comfort for you all in them. Our vet told me to consider myself and the impact of his needs were having on me, as well as the dog, which I was very angry about - probably in relation to me not wanting to give up - but he was right to say it as it was an indirect indicator of how hard things were becoming for the dog. It all circled back around to him. He was a total dreamboat, my absolute treasure and I haven't reached the point yet where I just remember him as the funny guy he was for most of his life. I don't feel like I can help you decide, I never can in times like this, but I think you've had some good advice.

Thank you. I know we made the right decision for my old girl. No way was I putting her through the trauma of an MRI at her age when there was no chance of her actually getting better. It just seemed unnecessary and she was an elderly dog anyway. The day I made the decision was a day we had gone for a little walk - which she still pottered along on - and my friend's dog, who she absolutely adored, came running over to greet her and she just stood there and didn't seem to recognise him at all. It broke my heart and I knew then she just wasn't happy anymore.