How to buy a puppy?

[Newfluff]

I've owned rescues for 30 years, at one point fostering. I've just lost my last rescue and I am looking to get a puppy.

I have never had a puppy before, I do not want to accidentally buy from a puppy farmer but I'm not sure where to begin.

I know lots will say adopt, and I haven't ruled this out but i would like help on where to start looking, pets4homes etc seems a bit of a wild west.

This is going to be a pile on I’m afraid

what I have done…and I’m not telling other people what to do or this is the best etc

I like to have a pure beed spaniel. I want the breed coefficient and that the parents have been health tested.

i want to know that this is first litter or max 2nd with at least a year gap

you can get this information KC. So when you find the puppy you want you ask for mums KC number and do some checks and make sure you see health check paper work

you want information that you can check about the stud

Thank you @Fizzygoo i am thinking that pure bred with checks is the way to go. I have thought about going to Crufts to have a chance to meet with breeders, and a chance to get a well bred pup.
In the past I've taken on all types of dogs but this time I am looking for certain traits .

if you know what breed you are interested in join some fb groups and look at posts which will give you lots of information about the breed.

if you are going for a working breed you need to decide if they come from a line on pets or a line of WTCH as they will have different temperaments…others will have differing opinions

Sorry autocorrect has mangled

from a line of pets

or FTCH

Whereabouts in the country are you and what kind of dog do you want? Why so set on a puppy? I always think the great thing about rescues is you can bypass puppy stage altogether 🤣

I know a rescue that quite regularly has hound puppies if that is something that would appeal. South East. Little girl puppy currently up for adoption…

Champ dogs. They only allow adverts from fully health tested and KC registered dogs. They are really fussy about it. I know someone who had permission from KC to breed their bitch after the age of 8 (8 yrs 1 month) for which they had to have a vet letter and it could not have been her first litter. KC were happy, but champ dogs wouldn't advertise.

Meet the dam to check temperament. Check KC records. Use the KC club 'health tests finder'. Go for one that has genetic tests as well as standard tests for that breed. Find out what those standard tests are for the breed you want. Eg Labrador is eyes, hips and elbows but then choose one with all the genetic tests too. Results would be on the KC website page.

First research the breed you like, make sure that it would be right for your family.
take into account the cost of insurance, injections, leads, collars, beds etc. Look at how much exercise that breed needs, you can’t be a fair weathered walker.
what will you do when you go on holiday or out for the day. The cost to train them, plus the ongoing commitment to training them
I love my dogs but they are a huge commitment.

Go into to Champdogs website, they list lots of breeds. They have a little info on each one, plus a list of owners and breeders. Contact them for advice.

Visiting Crufts is always worthwhile, find the day your breed is there. Lots of owners to talk to. Plus you get to see the adults, the size they grow to etc etc

Always make sure the parents have had required health checks. People listing a puppy as ‘vet checked’ is not the same.
Always see the mother of the pups. Often the stud dog can’t be seen as they’re often owned by someone else. Always visit more than once
ask LOTS of questions and be wary of any breeder who doesn’t ask you as many questions. The breeder should offer you information on the puppies and the parents.

Don’t pay ££££ for any dog. Prices went crazy with some breeders during lockdown, I last bought a dog 4 years ago, the breeder was charging the same price as her previous little 3 years prior.
Not all breeders charge £££, it may take a while but it’s worth waiting to find the right one.

trust your gut, if you aren’t sure, walk away. If for a second you suspect it’s a puppy farm, walk away. The puppies won’t be socialised. The bitch and stud dog won’t be well treated or well fed.
Never buy a puppy because you feel sorry for it, trust me you aren’t rescuing it, you’re allowing them to breed more puppies.

Go on to Facebook as often there are pages dedicated to different breeds. You can ask questions then from people who own the dog you’re interested in.

it’s worth doing all of this to ensure you end up with a rounded, healthy puppy

Good Luck, hope you find what you’re looking for 😊

Have you considered getting a vulnerable native breed?

Vulnerable native breeds | The Kennel Club

These breeds are not produced by the larger scale commercial breeders, but by enthusiasts. Look for one where the breed standard is that of a normal, well proportioned dog (not the exaggerated form that has crept in to some breeds) and then get on to the breed clubs. KC website should show the health screening test results of the parents and the coefficient of interbreeding (something to watch out for when numbers are small, but can be lower than some breeds with far greater numbers of puppies a year, again because they are often produced by enthusiasts who really do care about producing healthy dogs to keep the breed going)

I’m very cautious of pets 4 homes but know our kc reg puppy’s litter mates were advertised on there when there were 2 left to sell. (We knew the breeder for years and all kc reg etc). We just got a second puppy and that was through pets 4 homes. There’s lots of red flags in adverts but once caught my eye and I spoke with the breeder and got a good response. We visited and were happy he and his wife just bred their much loved family dog for the experience and found it wonderful but hard so no plans to do it again. He walked me to the car and was teary eyed saying goodbye. Asked me to send updates etc. she’s mix breed and just amazing.

it’s a minefield but be prepared to visit and walk away if it feels like a puppy farm.

There was an interesting AMA from a golden retriever breeder recently, OP — even if you’re looking for a very different breed, it might be useful to have a look at it as things to look out for in an ethical, high-quality breeder. The costs were eye-watering, though. £2500 for a puppy, and (among lots of other checks) a bank statement check to see whether you can afford monthly costs.

@Tellerain That was me! But I would say I am probably, at least as far as many buyers are concerned, too cautious about who I sell pups to. But then again, I’m looking to find the best home for them - not a good home. And I want to find my pups homes, I’m not here to find buyers a puppy.

The only thing I would say that others haven’t said here, is that IMO a good breeder won’t have more than one litter a year. Two per bitch in a lifetime. And they’ll keep the bitch when she’s no longer breeding. If a breeder only has young bitches that’s a massive red flag IMO. You don’t get rid of your dog if it gets dementia, or cancer or dysplasia so why would you get rid of your dog because her breeding days are over? People can say as much as they want ‘oh she goes to a good home,’ or ‘I can’t afford this many dogs’ but that’s not the point - you were her world for 5 years and if you actually love your dogs you don’t shove them off once they’ve ’outlived their usefullness’ (as one breeder I know described it!)

Champ dogs. They only allow adverts from fully health tested dogs

This isn't true - when I was looking there were plenty of labs where at least one parent didn't have what I'd consider the minimum range of tests. It's a good start but you still need to exercise your own judgment.

KC registered

Do you know what kind of dog you're after?

Thank you for all your replies, really helpful.

Why so set on a puppy? I always think the great thing about rescues is you can bypass puppy stage altogether

Main reason I think is that I want to be assured of it's health, and have a good idea of it's temperament. Years ago it was easy to re-home a proper mixed breed, whose parents were mixed breeds, so there wasn't the same worry about testing. Now all the rescues are unregistered breeds or designer dogs, I know so many designer dogs that have ended up with the breed issues of both parents.
I've been following the puppy blues thread, I won't lie it does sound hard!

Thanks for the Champdogs, I will have a look- on Pets4homes I was only searching for verified ads, concerning to so many litters with no info.

@RunningJo thanks, and I agree all is important to consider. This is the first time in 30 years I haven't had my own dog (or dogs, all rescue) Avoiding puppy farms is something that is important, I don't want to put myself in a situation where I'm looking at a dog that is a product of one, because walking away will be hard.

@wetotter that link is interesting, I'm shocked that a few collies are in that list, I'm going to have a proper look at it and look at the breeders.

@Tellerain puppies on P4H are going for £200, which shows that they haven't had any checks at all, I can well believe that testing and proper maternity care makes a pup cost £2500- I will look out the thread thanks. I would consider a Goldie, I would like a duck tolling retriever (as thats what I grew up with) but I don't think they are really bred in the UK.

I don't think you can be too cautious @LandSharksAnonymous
We've always bought our pups from small, well-established family kennels with a good reputation and health tested dogs, going by recommendations from people within the breed. We've had a home check from one breeder and met others at shows (ours is a numerically small breed). When we got a pup last year we filled in a 4 page questionnaire before seeing the litter. After committing to a pup we needed a written vets reference and were also endorsed by the breeder of one of our previous pups. We saw all this as a positive thing, the breeder and the stud dog owner both show commitment and offer support to puppy owners.

People who question paying £2,000 - £3,000 plus for puppies really have no idea of the difference between buying from a reputable, established breeder and buying cheap (or actually not always cheap) from an ad. I never understand their logic because the average person would think nothing of spending that much and more on one holiday...

No, I thought it was a great AMA! I’d simply never thought about prices, as someone who’s not keen on pet dogs, and hasn’t had a pet since childhood . You’re perfectly right to choose the best possible homes for animals that only exist because you produced them. I think that’s ethical.

@Newfluff
Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers are bred in the UK but are comparatively rare, with only about 100-200 puppies registered annually. It may be worth going on a waiting list for a puppy and there is a breed club who may be able to advise. If you attend Crufts on Gundog day you may also be able to get breeder recommendations there.

http://thetollerclub.co.uk/about-tollers/

Do join the Puppy Survival Thread, it's a great place for chat and support before and after you bring your puppy home.

Good luck and I hope you find your perfect puppy soon.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/AMA/5246070-i-breed-show-dogs-ama - that's my AMA thread, OP (with thanks to PPs who have described me as 'ethical' - I do my best!) which details the care it can take to raise a litter well and how I (hopefully a good breeder) vet potential buyers!

If you do decide on the Goldie route, feel free to drop me an IM - happy to discuss health tests and what to look for. I'd also recommend your local breed club. Do avoid the facebook groups where people offer to 'vet' litters for you as they tend to be pretty poor (they've blacklisted some really good breeders I know for the most ridiculous reasons!)

We found it hard to find breeders pre mating and tried for months even though I move in dog circles. So we looked on the KC site and Champ dogs to find ours. Our pups breeder didn’t normally advertise but had two pups available. Fully health tested and KC reg and we met several, generations of the breed line. We viewed several litters including from Pets4Homes as that was local. It was a dealer. Two two KC litters we viewed were several hours away but clearly breeding for legitimate reasons.

Like you we’d only had rescues before so it was a new experience. Take your time.

Crufts is a good way to start looking for breeders/ potential dogs.
But I would also be wary. What the Kennel Club deems healthy on paper isn't always healthy in reality.

If you have the time, energy and experience I would look at a working line dog. Most need that little bit more training, that little bit more stimulation and so on. But you will get a dog that is healthy, doesn't have any issues with confirmation, wird shin folds, or genetic defects from heavy inbreeding for beauty.

even in my relatively healthy breed there are issues coming up because of KC breed standards and the type of dog that wins the top prizes ☹️

If you can get to Crufts do so. Each day is group specific so make so you go on the right day. There are plenty of other shows which might be closer, check Fosse Data or Higham Press, for example Manchester Show (held at Stafford) starts today with Gundogs and finishes on Saturday with Terriers. Look for a type of dogs that appeals to you, it might not be the one winning which isn't important, judges have a type and some give prizes to friends or other judges who might be judging the judges dog the following month. If Golden Retrievers generally a choice of big and white or smaller and golden. Speak to the owners and see what vibe you pick up. In our breed, reputable breeders don't advertise through Champ Dogs anymore but there are lots of puppies of the breed advertised. Not saying that that is a bad thing but most probably pet not showdogs and I'm not sure if it's the case for all breeds. If searching on the Kennel Club website check the health test box but not the assured breeder box as the Assured Breeder Scheme is something you pay to join, it doesn't mean a better puppy, it's worrying how many assured breeders don't do all the health tests available.
We followed the above steps when finding our last puppy of a breed we had never owned before. We fell in love with a bitch at a show and then had to wait 2 years for a puppy from her, the breeder never advertised the litter. We have ended up with a beautiful, sound puppy that was worth the wait.
I agree with everyone saying that a bitch shouldn't be bred from before 2 years or after 8 years and no more that 2 litters. All this information can be found on the Kennel Club website, a bit of digging can find out how many bitches the owner is breeding from and how often they have litters. I would steer clear of anyone advertising 2 or more litters at a time.
Good luck.

When I was last looking for a Cocker Spaniel puppy, I contacted an international judge and author, the late Joyce Caddy after having read her book.

She rang me at home to say one of her dogs had sired a litter hundreds of miles from me. No matter, we made a weekend of it and brought him home. All his 14 years he was perfect.
That was an unexpected lucky break as I was originally looking for contacts.

If you know which breed you want, read all you can first to gain some knowledge. Then contact your local breed club and attend their shows. Or do as I did and contact the author of the breed book.

Go on the Kennel Club website. There’s a button to press find a puppy with drop down menu of all the breeds. Click on the breed(s) you’re interested in & it will show the breeders with puppies for sale, information about them including their pedigree.
Also on KC website you can find lists of all the breed clubs with contact details of their secretaries. Ring them & ask if they know of any members expecting a litter, or already have one. Once you ring one you often get passed round on the breeders grape vine if they aren’t planning a litter but know others who are. This is without doubt THE very best way to find a reputable breeder.
Expect to be put through the third degree if you find a breeder with puppies. In decades of breeding one of the most “At Risk Native Breeds” I never even once had to advertise, all my prospective owners contacted me through this grape vine, word of mouth from the club or other breeder/ exhibitors.

If someone is advertising a puppy for 200£

have they paid for worming and vaccinations and chipped and puppy health check at vets?

the puppy being KC registered?

stud cost?

quality food for mum and puppies?