Friend’s dog- discuss with her or not?

[Midwinterblue]

A long time friend has had her collie-sized rescue dog for three years. For various reasons she treats him as a baby-substitute and talks to him in a baby voice, picks him up on her lap and cuddles him all the time and struggles to leave him in another room.

The dog has bitten two members of the public so far, and is supposed to wear a muzzle and be on a lead at all times when out.

She is currently staying with us for a few nights with her dog. At home he sleeps in her bedroom, whereas our dogs sleep downstairs in the kitchen. Within a couple of years of their arrival the dog had uribated on my floor-length curtain and carpet (? marking his territory) so I then decided that he (and my dogs) would only be allowed in our open plan kitchen (plenty of space) as it has a hard floor so accidents would be easy to clean up.

The problem is at night- the dog barks and howls in the kitchen and my friend goes down multiple times to the kitchen meaning we haven’t had much sleep.

It licks its paws a lot, doesn’t seem to want to play with my dogs outside, and generally seems stressed and anxious.

This is partly a bit of a vent, but mainly should I talk to my friend about the dog?
To me at least it seems obvious that her treatment and lack of any boundaries means a stressed dog who is reactive. As things stand I wouldn’t entertain having the dog in the house again.

Woukd you say anything?
Are there any books you could recommend?

• within a couple of HOURS of arriving the visiting dog had cocked his leg on my curtain/carpet ;not years!)

You need have two options - say nothing, live with it and grit your teeth, or have an honest conversation with her and accept the risk that it might blow up your friendship.

I would really struggle to not say something - not least because I wouldn't be inviting her to stay again unless she left the dog elsewhere. Let alone the fact that the dog is clearly unhappy.

You say he's collie-sized but not what breed he is - part collie? If there's working dog in the mix, then the chances are that he's bored and stressed and probably not getting enough exercise and/or mental stimulation. Dogs need routine, boundaries and structure.

I would be honest. Tell her the dog looks unhappy and she might want to think about dog training / behaviourist and until that's sorted you can't have her back with him again as it's causing too much upheaval.

I have dogs of my own. H and I take it in turns to go elsewhere as we don't travel with them - they are rescues with various histories and behavioural quirks, so they are happiest at home, in their routine, being walked where they know.

What was her reaction to this?

Honestly, she knows her dog is a problem. She knows her dog is miserable. She knows her dog is aggressive. If it was me, and my dog was showing such severe signs of being upset (howling and barking all night) I'd have gone home with the dog - because I'm not a selfish git.

She's prioritising herself and her desire to see you, and be social, over her dog who is clearly miserable. Sucks for you, I am sure. Sucks more for her dog. She sounds like a pretty crap owner all around.

No amount of books, or saying anything to her will help because she's fundamentally selfish.

Personally, I'd ask her to leave and I'd tell her she' should rehome the dog. Well-balanced dogs don't piss in other peoples houses. They don't howl all night. She's done nothing to help that dog if she's treating him like a baby.

We expect an awful lot of dogs if we want them to walk into other dogs’ territories and not be stressed. Obviously I can see why you aren’t happy about it, but it’s not unusual dog behaviour, and I’m often surprised how people expect dogs to meld in with others like they’ve taken toddlers on a play date.

The biting is clearly a separate issue that she is being daft about, but as far as the ‘marking and barking’ goes, just say next time that it didn’t work having the dog there, and it won’t be possible to do it again. The rest is up to her.

I think expecting a dog who normally sleeps in the same room as their owner to sleep in the kitchen in a strange house is unfair.

A lot of the other behaviour sounds like stress but I'm not sure you can attribute it to her babying him. Collies are known for being neurotic and nippy even without accounting for the rescue background.

Sounds like a very stressed dog and probably best for your friend to take the dog back home.

No it is not for you to say anything as this behaviour may not be seen when the dog is comfortable. I would support the friend if she does comment and let her know you recognise how hard it is living with a stressed dog.

Your friend cuddling the dog and talking to it in a high pitched voice has not created this behaviour

Say nothing is my advice but never invite her again. The dog is obviously a higher priority than a couple of nights away with a friend.
Dog owners like this are fools to themselves as no one would look after their dog as a favour and he would be so distressed in kennels.

I’m not sure what breed he is but he is brown, black and brindle but with a collie look and longish collie type fur.
My friend was apologetic about the urination but speaks to the dog gently in long sentences ‘ ooh you mustn’t do that in other people’s houses’ etc so I think the dog is confused.
I do feel sorry for them both to be honest.

I won’t say anything then but will not be welcoming the dog back!

Whatever your friend is doing with her dog, she is not building his resilience, which ultimately will do him no favours. She needs to work on leaving him alone, and in the meantime accept that if she wants him to sleep in the same room as her, she needs to stay in places where dogs are allowed upstairs and make sure he's not pissing everywhere (I've not taken my dogs away often, but they have never done this; the only visiting dog who has done it here was an utter pain in the arse in many other ways - nipped at people, marked in his own house etc).

I wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut TBH. There would be strong hints about training and fulfilling the dog. Whether you say anything depends on you and how you think your friend will take it, but I don't think she can stay with the dog again - it's not fair on you and most definitely not on her dog either.

I don't think they're is any point trying to get friend to see the error of her ways in how she cares for her dog.

I think the best thing you could say would be that unfortunately what the dog is used at home to and what you are able/willing to provide are too far apart to make it possible to have him as a house guest again - too much stress all round. Very sorry friend.

She can conclude herself from that, that she's mollycoddled the dog too much, but more likely she'll just think it's a difference if approaches or the urination incident.

If it came up in conversation I'd be tempted to kindly advise that you can't expect a dog to understand a chatty gentle chat by way of behaviour modification and she might benefit from getting some books out of the library / going on YouTube of well respected dog trainers channel to see how to communicate with her dog..

Meant to say that as the dog is licking his paws, if front ones when lying down, he may need his glands emptying. That causes them stress.
Sure you knew that anyway, but tread carefully if suggesting it. "Oh he's licking his paws, when mine does that I just know it will be a trip to the vet for gland emptying."

Your friend cuddling the dog and talking to it in a high pitched voice has not created this behaviour

Treating it like a baby substitute sure won't be helping though.

Absolutely this. Our dog sleeps in our room by our choice. When we stay away she either sleeps with us or we don’t go. My MIL has accepted this being anti dogs in bedrooms. Being shut away would cause immeasurable stress which would show in other areas. Have a look at trigger stacking.

There are two issues here. The biting which needs addressing but also expecting a lot of a dog in a strange environment.

‘Babying’ the dog has not caused these issues.

we all love our dogs but your friend is bat shit crazy. soon as you said paw licking it is obvious this dog is nervous confused and unhappy. chances are he is not getting enough mental stimulation for a start but the way she is talking to him he has not a clue what is happening or what he has to do.
you say the dog is supposed to be muzzled when out after biting so i am assuming this is through a legal action. if she is not doing what she is supposed to be doing then she firstly risks biting again and having the dog taken off her which will be put to sleep in all probability.
your friend may be lonely but she is destroying this dog with this behaviour

Don't say anything, she wouldn't listen or appreciate it, just don't invite her to stay with you again!

As others have said, your judgement of how your friend treats and talks to her dog is separate from the behaviour you're describing.

A dog who always sleeps with its owner is going to be highly stressed in a strange house, being separated. If you want a good night's sleep, let the dog back in the bedroom and ask your friend to ensure that if he marks, she cleans it up with a proper enzyme cleaner. The marking is very common in a strange house and also nothing to do with how your friend treats her dog, and is simply the dog responding to the strangeness and the presence of your dog.

A lack of boundaries doesn't create a stressed dog. In fact it was probably the right thing to do for a young, scared rescue dog when it first came home. She was meeting the dog's needs. You may find it all exasperating and to be honest I might too - especially the baby talk - but the behaviour you're describing has nothing to do with clarity, boundaries, or how it's trained. It's the dog's emotional responses to its situation.

You might well want to support your friend to build her dog's confidence, but if you do so, please do it from that perspective, rather than having a go at her for her dog's perfectly normal and understandable behaviour, which has nothing to do with the way she treats it. It's not the dog's fault (it's never the dog's fault).

Edit - I've not commented on the biting or muzzling which is a whole different ball game but I do wonder why you invited them both to stay!