Shih Tzu, Havanese or Toy Poodle??

[BlueRaspberry7]

I've researched for many months to whittle our breed shortlist down to these 3 - removing cockapoos and Cavapoos along the way - having learnt of behavioural issues eg. SA.

I wfh, go on 2 short daily walks and have a private garden, have a husband who also wfh half the week, two young teens and 3 cats, and rarely travel.

Can anyone please advise which breed would be best suited to us as first time dog owners?

We have a shih tzu and a toy poodle x bischon frize. They are both fabulous dogs who we'd have again in a heartbeat.

They have been very well trained and I think this makes a big difference.

The shih tzu we rescued at 11mths old and he was a nightmare for the first year. The toy poodle x we have had from 8 weeks.

Both are very intelligent breeds, learn quickly and respond well to training. They are both affectionate and warm natured and really lovely family dogs.

@Mummybearsthename we met a bichon frise x toy poodle yesterday - she was 8 years old and her owners said she's a wonderful dog. She was very sweet with a tiny little face!

This is the same as my boy. He has the best nature.

No they are not. They come in a large range of colours.

My neighbour's two Shih-tzus are little terrors! They've even got my terrier running scared. Bark at every little thing too, and I know for a fact she's made a huge effort trying to train them, but I suppose that's just a sample of two.

Poodles are great, but you do need to put a lot of effort into training and exercising them because they've very smart and if they get bored, they can get pretty naughty!

Havenses are lovely dogs in my experience, but they can be clingy!

So, on balance, I'd probably go for a poodle if I had the time/was willing to put lots of effort into training, and a Havanese might be easier if you have less time (although training/exercising is a must whatever breed you get).

Have a look at Maltese or mixed Maltese/shih Tzu. Gorgeous friendly dogs

I have two Shih Tzus and. love them dearly they are fun friendly little monsters, I have one who is so so clever and one who is not but tries his best, one of mine is also a little reactive as he got squished several times as a puppy by bigger off lead dogs, sometimes he will happily walk past other times he likes to shout, I know I get judged but don't care. The grooming can be expensive, I like keeping mine hairy and I brush them every day and sort their top knots out, but it takes minutes because I do it every day, mine are still young are lover to do zoomies all around the house. but they. are just fun to around, be warned though they change colour sometimes dramatically, my eldest was almost chocolate brown when he came home but is now a beautiful light red, and my youngest was a black and gold brindle, he is turning all kinds of different colours. the black is turning grey and the gold is turning red so I can't wait to see what his adult coat will be.

Have you thought about a Zuchon - which is a cross between a Shih Tzu and a Bichon Frise?

Ours is 11 years old, and DM has his brother. Both are lovely dogs, really affectionate and friendly. Get knackered after a very short walk but do love a run around in the garden to play!

The mix of the Bichon means there isn’t the issue with the flat face. Our boys snores a bit when asleep but no issues with breathing or running around! In 11 years we’ve had no health issues and neither has DM’s dog.

The breed doesn’t moult and their temperament is so laidback they’re often used as disability aid dogs (which is why we picked the breed - we have SEN DC). They’re funny and so full of character, I’d definitely go for this breed again.

Here’s our 11 year old lad sporting my DD’s Halloween headband the other day 😂 (please ignore the backdrop, we’re mid-renovation!)

This isn’t a breed, it’s a cross. And the problem is there are zero guarantees with crosses that anyone is doing health checks on the parent dogs before breeding, and crosses are very popular with puppy farmers who are very cunning at hiding their operations in plain sight and setting the puppies up to look like they come from a home environment. Cockapoos are the classic example but others are equally at risk.

Everything you’ve got in personality you could have got from a pedigree bichon, and then you could also have gone to a breeder with a national reputation who does DNA testing of breeding stock and would know the breeding coefficient, which would be a safer way of getting a healthy puppy.

I’m not really sure what point you’re making, tbh.

Everything you’ve just said could equally be levelled at a pure breed. You have no idea where I got my dog, or the checks that were carried out first.

FWIW, I always describe my dog as a cross - I don’t use the “breed” of Zuchon. But like Cockapoo etc, they’re described as a “breed”. There are plenty of more established dog breeds that originated from two breeds coming together so I’m not quite sure why you’re being so dismissive.

Of course, like any dog, what you get is a mix of the two parents with no telling what characteristics you’ll get. My boy very much has a Shih Tzu temperament.

The benefit of the Zuchon is for those who like a Shih Tzu but are concerned about the breathing. None of the Zuchons I’ve seen have a flat face. The longer snout alleviates the problem.

I think OP said she doesn’t want a white dog, so that would rule out a Bichon.

You repeatedly called it a “breed”, if you check your own post.

The point I’m making is there is no breed standard with a cross. With a shih tzu, or bichon, or any breed, prospective owners have a standard to refer to and can see how their potential new dog compares to it. Eg I like golden retrievers, and I can see what the average hip score is for the breed and go for parent dogs with lower than average scores to reduce the risk of hip dysplasia. I can look at breeding coefficients of the mating and again go for below average for the breed. You presumably have no idea of the coefficient of the parent dogs of yours, so therefore no idea of the genetic lineage of the dogs. And in terms of inherited diseases, pedigree breeders with an interest in furthering the health of the breed will do genetic testing and only breed from clear dogs. So they wouldn’t breed cocker spaniels without testing for PRA, for example. Now again, there is nothing stopping breeders of crosses from doing these tests, but a look at puppies for sale on pets4homes etc suggests that typically they don’t. And many conditions only require one parent to have the gene, so the idea that crossbreeding equals healthier dogs is a myth.

What I’m saying is, I don’t really understand the need to breed two completely different breeds to get particular characteristics when there are so many pedigrees which offer the same in terms of personality. I can see the benefits of breeding closely related breeds - eg Guide Dogs often breed labs to goldies - but only if the same health tests are done as for pedigrees. And most hobby breeders of crosses don’t do it.

My parents have a shih-zhu x Havanese cross. He is a very old boy now so occasionally getting grumpy and snappy when the children get on his nerves, but in his younger days he was very playful, very tame, and very good natured. We never had any problems with him and young small children. He’s very bright and seemed to learn things (where there was something in it for him) and very loyal. Great dog.

Yes, maybe my comment wasn’t clear.

What I meant was in everyday life I don’t refer to my dog as a Zuchon, or describe him as a Zuchon breed. I find it a bit twee tbh, so I call him a Shih Tzu cross.

I described Zuchon as a “breed” for the purposes of this post. They exist as a “breed” in the same way as many of the others, such as Labradoodle etc which have been accepted widely now as a “breed” in their own right.

So when I said I don’t call my dog by a breed, I wasn’t referring to this post but in everyday life. Apologies for the confusion.

I described it as a breed here because it might be a dog for the OP to consider. There’s a lot of info about the Zuchon “breed” online but you need to know the “breed name” ie/Zuchon. I did make it clear that they are a Shih Tzu/Bichon cross.

It’s possible to follow the lineage of each parent, if you go to the right breeder. I would argue that there are also plenty of dubious purebreds on the sites you reference. That isn’t a problem that’s confined to the so-called designer dogs.

Bichons have a very different character to a Shih Tzu/Bichon mix. Same goes for a purebred Shih Tzu. Also, I wouldn’t personally want a dog that’s bradycephalic but despite looking very much like a Shih Tzu, with the longer snout my dog doesn’t have those problems.

With our DC and their needs, we did a lot of breed research and visited lots of breeders. We were able to view both parents and had full information about their lineage and health. Our boy was absolutely the right choice, and I’d definitely go for a Zuchon again.

Maybe there’s another breed out there with similar characteristics? When we were making our decision 11 years ago we couldn’t see one that ticked the same boxes.

It will be interesting to see if they’re accepted as a breed by the KC, with corresponding breed standards.

All of that aside, they’re a great option for you OP and I think would suit your circumstances well.

So you found a bichon frise breeder who was crossbreeding their dogs but still did the eye testing required to be a KC assured breeder?

And also…sorry to labour the point, but you’ve got no idea when you buy a cross which parent it will favour. I did actually own shih-tzu crosses, years ago. One was basically the same personality as a purebred. The other was nothing like and took after the other parent (a Westie, as it happens, so a completely different personality type). So it’s a totally illogical argument to get a cross because you want a particular personality. You have no idea what you’ll get. I currently have a sprocker spaniel, but he might as well be a cocker. There’s nothing of the springer personality in him at all (he’s a rescue, not a deliberate choice).

No one likes cross breeds on mumsnet but we have a shihpoo - toy poodle x shih tzu. She has been an absolute dream so far really friendly and cuddly. She enjoys a walk and we take her twice a day but could skip if needed if we were ill or something. She’s great with kids. I would give her 10/10 🤣

The poodle dad did have PRA testing done. She was from a busy household with kids where they also left the dogs to go out etc which I think is important.

I don’t know much about Havanese but the other dogs in your list are generally lovely fairly low maintenance dogs.

I have had many many dogs over the years- rescue, crosses, pure breeds and I do some dog sitting/minding/walking.

Bichon would suit your needs but I know you not keen on white dogs.

Have you considered and discounted dachshunds? Total characters, little/no grooming costs, great fun and if well raised super socialable. Downside they can be stubborn to toilet train sometimes.

I wouldn’t have a shitzu or havenese.

I grew up with poodles of all shapes and sizes so out of your list that would be my top choice.
But research your breed line carefully. I had a standard boy who ended up getting a bit snappy. After a lot of work he didn’t improve and when I went to ask for help from Poodle Rescue Group they looked further into his breed line than I was able to ( he came from a cruft winning line and was beautiful) Turned out there was a ‘fault’ in his breed line and they advised pts for his sake. In the end I managed to find him a one man/no kids home and he did well right up into old age.
Also consider grooming costs. Even a standard sheep cut takes a good bit of upkeep and finances.
I would recommend getting an equafleece to help with coat when out walking over winter/in wet.

And remember not all socialisation is good socialisation. It only takes one ‘bad’ interaction to start reactivity so it’s important to let pup meet dogs from afar in a calm controlled manner. I socialise my pups only with dogs I know until they a decent age.
Have fun!