What to look for/ask breeder?

[TheWorstWeek]

We're looking to get a puppy around mid-November so we'll be actively looking soon. We have been waiting for a couple of big engagements to pass so that we can properly dedicate time to a puppy and that should be sometime in November. I'm very excited but have never had a puppy before so...

Obviously I have been doing lots of research already and will continue to do so but what are the most important things you think I should look for/ask a breeder?

We had this dilemma. The only breeders who health tested were the ones who line bred in our chosen breed. That meant the COI was higher than breed average BUT all recommended and also the nice to have health tests were done. We were also able to meet the dogs in the same line who were 16/17 years old and still fit and healthy.

I am not talking crazy high. Just a bit higher. There is no need to go over 12 COI at all unless you have a very rare breed.

We had this dilemma. The only breeders who health tested were the ones who line bred in our chosen breed.

We saw litters of labs with a coefficient of 12.5% (a shared grandparent). In a breed as numerous as labs you can't persuade me there's any reason to have an inbreeding coefficient that high. I'd think the same is true of cocker spaniels.

Cockers as a breed have a high average COI (I just looked, it is >9%). It's hard to bring a high COI down if all the dogs are related, though in cockers you have the option of crossing between very distinct lines (though neither show nor working people are likely to want to do that).

It's a big dilemma, as we enjoy and sometimes need the predictability that comes with breed type, or of lines within a breed, but while closed breed registries (where only progeny of registered parents can be registered) preserve 'type', they also cause inbreeding issues. Some breed societies have a policy of 'if it looks like it and behaves like it, it is it'. I think eventually KCs will have to sanction outcrosses more often, but that's another discussion.

My friend had a dog from the same line as ours and she sent me the pedigree. This was before the KC online data base so I plugged in some of the line names out of interest and the COI were crazy! Over 40%. I wasn’t sure that was even possible. Thankfully the COIs in the line are now down to more sensible levels!

It’s hard when you need to breed for certain working traits or even health as you do need to line breed. But I personally would not consider a pup over 12.5% You also need to consider how many generations are present if the COI is low.

Anecdotally as a trainer who has had contacts with hundreds of dogs of all different origins the line bred working dogs have been happier and healthier than the ‘gumtree’ type pedigrees. That may be because their owners know how to feed and condition and socialise but I’ve seen many rescue pedigrees in experienced hands who are in awful health.

I never realised the average coi for cocker spaniels was so high.

This is an interesting article I read when doing some research before getting our first (and a breeder trying to say that a coi of 12.5% wasn't an issue because of x,y,z)

https://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/what-level-of-inbreeding-is-safe

There was a poster recently who was considering a puppy with 18% COI and the amount of posters saying it was fine was horrifying. ‘Perfectly acceptable as long as the puppies scores are good.’

No. Inbreeding (particularly in a common breed) to that degree is never acceptable.

Not trying to be dense, just making sure I'm being completely clear... The lower the COI the better, providing there are enough generations to be seen but that also coincides with good health tests of (preferably) both parents? Yes? With the COI of Cocker Spaniels being about 10% then I should aim for under this at least, yeah?

Like I say, having never bought a puppy in the past and only ever rescued, I'm not as well versed in all this as I want to be. But I absolutely want to get it right.

Are you going for a show or working cocker?

Fine a good trainer. Consider strongly gundog training - you don't need to shoot etc or even agree with it to do the training and it provides a brilliant framework. There is a group on FB called the ladies working dog group that is fab. If looking for a working line dog, check out gundog breeders but avoid anything with a lot of red in its pedigree- this denotes if the dog is a field trials champion and while it's a good indicator if you want a blooming good gundog, it could end you up with a Ferrari of a working dog!

The lower the COI the better, providing there are enough generations to be seen but that also coincides with good health tests of (preferably) both parents? Yes? With the COI of Cocker Spaniels being about 10% then I should aim for under this at least, yeah?

Yes, yes and yes! 😀

Both parents should absolutely be health tested. The only reason someone wouldn't (if they are a breeder) is because they absolutely know there is an issue with the dog they haven't tested and they don't want to not be able to breed that dog.

(Below is a lot of detail, so feel free to ignore)

Chances are you won't get dogs with absolutely perfect health tests. But you just have to decide what issues you could live with (unless you strike gold and manage to find that perfect pup).

For example, PLA (which tests for primary glaucoma) on spaniels I would (assuming all other tests are clear or unaffected and the COI is low) accept a value of 1 (ranks 0-3 where 1 is 'mildly affected' but can still be bred from) from one parent (but not both). Ideally it would be 0 - but getting a puppy where all parents health tests are perfect, the COI is low and the breeder is 'good' is so difficult if not impossible.

However, something like hip dysplasia I would never risk (it's debilitating, painful and with a dog like a cocker spaniel just unfair) and I would expect very low scores.

Ultimately, it is a very individual decision. Some people would go with a higher hip score but demand a '0' on PLA, some people would prioritise a lower COI.

Preferably a working. We absolutely are planning to work with a trainer and do lots of extra research and training ourselves once we get the pup.

I hadn't considered the fact that one parent's "may not have" health checks due to actually having poor scores so thanks for that. Both dogs health checks it is!

I fully agree. I wouldn't consider hip dysplasia. My sister has it (not comparing my sister to a dog!) and I know how terrible it can be. She ended up with a double hip replacement in her 40s. I would hate for a dog to experience that sort of pain and not being able to understand what it was. Of course, that isn't to say that I expect a perfectly healthy dog just because their parents are healthy. I know that's not how it works.

MIL is KC registered breeder. Sadly I can assure you proof of lineage is laughable- they swap dogs and papers left right and centre. Yes, I have reported her and her breeder friends many many times......

Ideally yes but as long as health tests are done.

Eg two litters. One had a COI of 10.9 with breed average of 8. Lots of health tests. 35 generations all complete. Breeder has repeat business and word of mouth. Several previous generations in the home all very fit and healthy. One a COI of 6 but no health tests and only 3 generations. Had a litter to calm bitch down.

I’d personally go for the first one.

Ah brilliant @TheWorstWeek! Check out LWDG on FB and there is a few really good trainers on YouTube (I like pettycord Gundog's with Nick Ridley).

This makes perfect sense. Thank you.