Socialisation window

[Spinderellaseverywhere]

Hi all,

We went to see a puppy cavalier today (5 months old). The breeder had decided to keep the puppy but then changed her mind. The puppy was amazing with my children in the house, so gentle and friendly. We took the puppy for a walk and he seemed really scared of other dogs. I imagine he hasn’t been out much. Is this something that would be likely to improve with time and walks etc or is it likely to be more embedded by this age? He had such a lovely character but it would make life difficult for us if he remains scared of other dogs as we want to have nice walks etc.

Why has the breeder decided to sell?

Dog to dog socialisation must be done in the first 16 weeks of a puppy's life. If this breeder was responsible, she would have put maximum effort into getting the pup used to all the sights and sounds pre this window closing.

You would have work to do. This pup would need extensive rehabilitation by someone that knows what they are doing.

It can be done - but it takes time and skill. And you will likely never have an adult dog that's as comfy round other dogs as a dog that was well-socialised as a pup.

The purchase price should be reduced to reflect a poorer quality product (and i am afraid pups do come into the same category as any other product you buy - classed as good in the eyes of the law)

Why hasn’t the breeder been taking the pup out much?
An absolutely massive red flag! If they intended to keep the puppy, they would have socialised it, if they were any use whatsoever as an owner or breeder
I highly doubt this is legit and as a dog trainer, I would run a mile I’m afraid

Ps it will not improve on its own. You need to start working at distance and low distraction. It is a long, slow and not always successful process.

Sounds like breeder only wanted pup for breeding but has become aware of an issue which makes using this pup unreasonable- not such a bad thing but a good breeder would socialise their pup.
I wouldn’t buy this one because walks could become a nightmare for you and the dog.

A male cavalier the breeder doesn't want to keep for breeding? That likely means one thing: expensive vets bills in that puppies future.

That being said, it wouldn't put me off if I could afford it (but I would want to see all tests done on said pup). Who was with you for the walk? Breeder? Or did you take it alone? If the latter, I can see why the puppy might be scared tbh - randomers taking him for a walk.

But you can absolutely have 'nice walks' with a nervous dog. I did it for 15 years.

He was kept for showing not breeding in think. It was just us with the puppy not the breeder but took her a while to find the collar etc so I’m not convinced she takes him out much really.

I checked the health tests etc and all legit.

I rescued a 17week old pup that had been in foster. The foster Mum hadn’t started vacs or socialisation so I started it all at 17weeks. We managed with a LOT of work to get him turned round and he is grand now but he was the only one in his litter who wasn’t returned due to behaviourial issues.
It can be done but it’s a lot of work and unless you know exactly what you are doing you will need experienced help.
Breeders will quite often ‘run a dog on’ as they intend to keep them for showing but then they dont grow to breed standard etc etc
Show dogs aren’t always treated the same as pet dogs so it might be the same in this case.

I would walk away I'm afraid. You could potentially be left with a long term anxiety or behaviour issues. Cavaliers are a generally popular breed so I'd just keep looking for a younger puppy or else a better socialised dog.
Why take on a problem would be my thoughts.

I think this is basically what happened she had decided to show and then changed her mind but doesn’t generally walk the dogs they just rumple round the house and garden.

I took on a miniature poodle at the same age who'd been kept back with his brother for similar reasons. He'd only been exercised with the other poodles on the breeders land. He was so inexperienced he fell put of my back door as he'd never seen a step before.

He turned out to be the best dog I've ever had. He went everywhere with me, wasn't interested in other dogs except my sister's GSD, was good with her children, came running with me, was very healthy and lived for 18 years.

Was he fearful of other dogs or just avoidant? This pup wouldn’t walk past a cocker spaniel today. Gorgeous in the house though. If we hadn’t gone for a walk it would have been a no brainer. Lovely dog.

Yep very common. They aren’t trained the same as ‘house dogs’ so rarely get the same socialisation.
For contrast.. I have an approx 4month old pup here at min that was rescued from puppy farm. She was underweight, not used to daylight, not vax/fleas wormed. BUT. I got her at approx 7/8 weeks and straight away worked on her socialisation.. I carried her everywhere in a bag, took her every where in car, took her to friends houses with vaccinated dogs for playtime, took her to shops and she got cuddles from strangers. She is now up to weight, vaxed, amazing in the car, crate trained and toilet training is going well. She can now walk on a lead and is happy to met other dogs. So despite her terrible start she was got early enough to avoid problems.
Cavaliers can be needy, noisy little creatures at the best of times and as hard as is it to walk away I would unless you want lots and lots of hard work. Getting a much younger puppy might result in more sleepless nights but will be less work in the long run and young enough to quickly get used to your family routines and needs.

He just wasn't interested in other dogs. It took me about half an hour to get him to walk anywhere on his first walk, but once he decided it was ok, he just followed me.

Eek no idea what to do. Such a gorgeous boy but just worried it may not improve.

Has he mixed with the breeders other dogs? My breeder used to take all her dogs out together in her fields. Was he just overwhelmed, hiding behind you afraid or barking, reactive afraid?

Yes he was fine with the breeders other dogs (all cavaliers). Not reactive at all just tail down, refused to move. No barking either.

It's possibly the first time he's been out in his own then, without another dog. I'd be inclined to ask for another walk, see if you can gee him along, now you know what to expect, or try him walking with another more confident dog. If you absolutely love him for everything else I'd risk it.

This doesn't add up as if she had intended to show the dog, getting it out and about early and to ringcraft classes would have been a priority.
I am guessing that she has decided not to show due to the lack of confidence that she hasn't been able to overcome rather than just changing her mind.
What I'm saying is don't assume this will be easily solved.

Has the puppy been around the breeders other dogs? That would be crucial to me. I'd ask them to see puppy play/ be around the other dogs to see how he behaves.
If definitely scared and not interacting, then walk away.

I think you have to give a 5 months old puppy a bit of slack on a solo walk. The breeder might have simply taken him out with the other dogs or to an enclosed field. So it's possible he hasn't had to face other strange dogs, humans or bushes by himself.

That would obviously take a bit of work and commitment on your behalf to correct, but it wouldn't put me off IF he's been happily paying with his housemates.

5 months seems like a weird age to decide he’s not a show prospect tbh

It’s also odd that he’s not been socialised, how was she expecting him to cope with a show if he’s never been out and about?

But leaving that sort of stuff aside…

I’m assuming by what you’re asking that you’re not hugely experienced with dog behavioural issues, in which case, don’t take him on.

Yes you can with a lot of hard work get a dog that’s scared of other dogs to be ok with seeing them out and about, but it’s a hard slog and you’d probably want professional help which isn’t particularly cheap - and you can do all that and never improve the issue or even worse it can escalate into a much bigger problem.

if what you want is a pet and not a project then you’d be better continuing to look for another breeder.

@Spinderellaseverywhere my Cav is 2, I got her at 8wks and she's been walked twice a day, everyday (except when it rains because she refuses) and she does exactly what you describe.

If she sees a dog approaching she will stand dead still and try to figure out if she knows the dog/owner, she will rarely approach a dog even if she knows it and lets them come to her. She only approaches dogs who's owners make a big fuss over her, she's really submissive and will do a low crouch walk up to the dog, let them sniff her and then go up to the owner for a fuss.

If a dog comes up to her she will crouch down and let them sniff her and then she will quite happily follow them around until I call her, if a dog is bouncy she generally avoids them.

We have lovely walks, not having a dog totally obsessed with other dogs is a good thing. My dog is completely focused on me, she's off lead the majority of our walks because I know she will never wander up to other dogs, she ignores other people and will immediately come up to me if asked and walk close to my leg when we see cyclists, scooters or prams. I often get comments on how well behaved she is.

As long as the pup is healthy I don't see a problem.

Thats an interesting perspective and makes sense I did say to my husband that not being dog obsessed isn’t always a bad thing. The problem is where we live literally everyone has a dog so it would be a lot of stopping.

I have said no to the breeder today. Felt really sad as he was a lovely dog but I was nervous of making the ‘wrong’ decision as my kids would be heartbroken if we had to rehome. I’m not a dog expert so may have been the wrong decision.

I think you've done the right thing @Spinderellaseverywhere