Help with choosing a puppy

[allchildrengrowup]

Could anyone more knowledgeable than me help with some questions I have about selecting a puppy, especially regarding the health testing? I’m trying to be thorough and responsible in choosing a healthy pup, but I find it all a bit confusing and have been struggling to find the answers online.

We've visited three litters of miniature poodles. All seemed liked caring, ethical breeders and they are all being brought up in family homes with the mother present - so definitely not puppy farms. They were all happy for me to visit as many times as needed, happy to take the pups back if there was a problem, weren't insisting on deposits straight away etc.. So hopefully all good on that front.

Q1: One of the litters we saw has an inbreeding coefficient (COI) of 5.7%, which is slightly higher than the breed average of 3.5%. However, the sire’s COI is 19.3% (7 generations complete), while the mother’s COI is 3.3%. Could someone explain (in as simple terms as possible), whether there is still a high risk of health issues from inbreeding if one of the parents has a significantly high COI?

Q2: All the litters' parents have been DNA tested for OC and PCRD-PRA. Should I also expect other health tests such as hips, eyes, VWD, or DM? I haven't found any miniature poodle breeders who offer these tests, so I’m unsure if I should only consider breeders who do. Alternatively, could I arrange for the puppy to be tested myself and potentially return the puppy if any major health issues arise?

Q3: One of the puppies we liked fell asleep in my arms for a long time but cried when she woke up. Could this indicate nervousness in her temperament, or is this normal ? I might be overthinking it! The puppy’s mother was incredibly sweet and kind, so I hope some of that personality is passed down to her pups.

Any guidance on these questions would be appreciated!

I don't know much about poodles, but regarding COI, it's the COI of the puppy that counts, not the COI of the parents.

We chose a puppy that fell asleep on one of us and she turned into a wonderful dog. The one who slept on you might just have woken up hungry....

Yes, I'm sure she could well have been hungry / missing her litter mates. I'm just really keen to get a calm, confident pup, as we have quite a noisy house (three kids, youngest is 8).. It feels like a really big decision as I know lots of people who bought puppies in lockdown and those puppies have now turned into hyperactive, neurotic dogs. How did everyone else choose their puppies from the litter?

Look up your breeders on Champdogs. Each of their dogs should be listed with all the health and genetic test results. If you aren't sure what is recommended for the breed look that up too.

My current Labrador was chosen for me by the breeder. I asked for the boldest dog and that's what I got. We had half a dozen long conversations before the puppies were born so she knew I would cope. He's as lovable and brilliant as my previous dogs.

Q1: One of the litters we saw has an inbreeding coefficient (COI) of 5.7%, which is slightly higher than the breed average of 3.5%. However, the sire’s COI is 19.3% (7 generations complete), while the mother’s COI is 3.3%. Could someone explain (in as simple terms as possible), whether there is still a high risk of health issues from inbreeding if one of the parents has a significantly high COI?
I would 100% swerve this litter. 19.3% is disgraceful and unforgivable for a breeder - it means the bitch/sire share the same parent (either mother or father) or possibly two grandparents. Worst case scenario, the parents are half siblings. They are not ethical breeders and I would run a mile before a bought a puppy from them. And yes, there is a higher risk of health issues from that litter.

Q2: All the litters' parents have been DNA tested for OC and PCRD-PRA. Should I also expect other health tests such as hips, eyes, VWD, or DM? I haven't found any miniature poodle breeders who offer these tests, so I’m unsure if I should only consider breeders who do.
I wouldn't buy a breed that was known to have medical issues if the puppies hadn't been tested for.

Alternatively, could I arrange for the puppy to be tested myself and potentially return the puppy if any major health issues arise?
No. Why should you? Tests are expensive and a good breeder should be testing.

Q3: One of the puppies we liked fell asleep in my arms for a long time but cried when she woke up. Could this indicate nervousness in her temperament, or is this normal ? I might be overthinking it! The puppy’s mother was incredibly sweet and kind, so I hope some of that personality is passed down to her pups.
Completely normal. She woke up in an unfamiliar place.

I have never chosen my puppy from the litter. I use breeders who 'select' the puppy for you - a good breeder will have spent 6-7 weeks with their pups 24/7 and will know which potential owner is best suited. Every puppy has a different personality and I would trust a breeders judgment over my own tbh!

As @muddyford says, champ dogs can be very useful. On a Min Poodle I would want: PRA (both tests), OC, NW/NEWS and VWD - all of which cover diseases that are common in poodles (NEWS and VWD are particular awful). OC and PRA are bad - but dogs can adjust to life with them...they can't with the two others.

Wow - I'm so glad I posted on here! Thanks so much for the warning @Killingoffmyflowersonebyone - I'll definitely not be going for a pup from this litter. I'll definitely check out Champdogs - seems like there's lots of really good info on there. So should I be ensuring that the COI of both parents is at or under the breed average? And as regards the health tests, I assume that both parents should be clear? For one of the litters I've seen, the sire has been extensively tested, but the dam has only been tested for OC and PRA. Thanks again for all the advice - this has really helped.

Happy to help!

Really worth looking at ChampDogs - it does have some excellent advice and it goes into very basic terms on the various diseases that each breed can have. From there, it's up to you on which tests you absolutely want to see in a dog. I would want both parents as extensively test as possible - but that is not always possible and not everyone is prepared to wait as long as it takes. Remember: tests cost money to perform so always ask yourself: why did the breeder not get the tests done? Is it because they are trying to cut corners or is it because they think something might show up (rendering the dog not breedable)?

In my (very personal) opinion, I would be willing to take a puppy that had a COI slightly above average or a parent that was slightly above average. Shared grandparent(s) or a shared parent for sire/bitch would be a massive red flag - particularly in a relatively common breed. My most recent dog, a Golden Retriever, has a COI of 8.5% (breed average 6.8%) but dad and mums hip scores were both under 5 (which is very good, breed average is about 18/19 atm, I think), and both parents were fully health tested- so I was willing to show some flexibility towards the COI.

Remember, it can take a really long time to find the right puppy from the right breeder where the health tests and COI are good. Not every KC breeder is a good one. But, it is worth the wait - because you can sleep more comfortably knowing that your dog won't suffer from some potentially life-changing illnesses that were the result of poor breeding.

Best of luck! Miniature Poodles are lovely dogs 😊

Have you looked on the website of miniature poodle club UK they are the most knowledgeable source for relevant breed tests I got mine through them I was given a list of miniature poodle enthusiasts who were either expecting puppies or were hoping to have puppies in the near future. 13 years later my miniature poodle has never had a days illness in his life and looks and behaves like a 5 yr old and is a stunning example of the breed.

My dog has a high COI but the line is health tested back through numerous generations being clear so it isn't an issue.
It is a massive issue if the required health tests are lacking as obviously the chances of something bad being passed down are hugely increased.

@poodlefan - thanks for this, this is really helpful. I've just sent them a message, so hopefully we might find a good breeder this way. Wow - 13 years old without a day's illness - that's really good to hear. It would seem that by far the majority of breeders either don't health test at all, or else only do the basic tests. Exactly as you say @Killingoffmyflowersonebyone, I think it's going to be a long hard search, but I'm more than willing to put the time in and wait for the right puppy.

COI has to be taken in context. My dog has a COI higher than the breed average but she is bred from a line well known for good health and temperament where there are no recorded health problems. I know low COI dogs of the same breed which have multiple issues so if your dog is line bred which many ethical breeders do then it is likely to have a higher COI.

A high COI in one parent doesn't make for a high COI in the litter: that depends on the relatedness of the two parents. You could have two dogs with very low COIs who would produce a litter with a very high one. So in the OP's case, the litter has a much lower COI than the stud. Whoever bred the stud needs to take a biology lesson... The litter itself has an okay COI. Whether you want to support the breeding of dogs like the stud by buying one of his offspring is another matter (he's probably been chosen because he's won in the show-ring, and he's won because he's been virtually cloned to meet the breed standard as interpreted by the current crop of judges).

High COI can be the result of two dogs with a lot of shared ancestors several generations back being mated. And paper COI is often incomplete as it might not go back far enough to pick up shared ancestry.

Just to say good luck with your poodle. We have a miniature and she is adorable.

Line breeding is just another word for inbreeding.

Also, please remember COI is accumulative, so the inbreeding from Dad of 19.3% could just be coincidence. Without seeing the full pedigree, it can be difficult to judge.

I'd go with the puppy that appeals the most to you, is happy to be handled by you and want to hang out with you, beyond the shoe lace nibbles (Including falling asleep on you!).
A puppy in a litter with siblings often presents very different from being settled in their new homes. So don't be fooled by calm appearances or boisterous behaviour!

The link below should tell you what health tests should be carried out in the mini Poodle. I'd advise against doing your own health tests on puppy unless absolutely necessary- which isn't the case for your puppy. As a side note, hip & elbow socres are usually done at around 12 months of age, dogs will get a general anesthetic in order to take X-rays, not something you do lightly!

www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health-and-dog-care/health/getting-started-with-health-testing-and-screening/

It is but if you want to enhance or preserve certain traits for work for example it’s what happens and it’s quite acceptable as long as it’s done with care.

Im a dog trainer and for the most part the line bred dogs I come in contact with are the healthiest and happiest. The most troublesome are puppy farmed both medically and behaviourally.

Thanks all for your input. So the high COI in the sire may potentially not be such an issue, although the sire and dam are only confirmed clear of PCRD-PRA for this litter, so they haven't had any of the other tests. @Ylvamoon thanks for that link. It would seem that KC only recommends the tests for OC and PCRD-PRA in the mini poodle, which is at odds with Champdogs, which lists PRCD-PRA as mandatory and DM, Eye, OC and VwD as recommended. There are hardly any breeders where both parents have been extensively health tested, so it's much harder to find a puppy hereditary clear of all these diseases - I think this is going to be a long and time-consuming search . Does anyone know how common these diseases are? If they're very rare, is that why the KC doesn't list them as recommended tests? Grrrr, all so confusing!!!

They're not hugely common diseases (DM/VwD/NEWS/OC). I think something around 10% or less will carry the diseases - and less than 1% will be affected by it.

But the point is you don't want a dog with them - DM, for example, cannot be treated and you end up with a dog unable to walk before it's even really lived to it's full potential (I've seen dogs have to be PTS at 8 years old because of it). Essentially, with DM, your aim is to keep the dog walking as long as possible. That's it.

VwD likewise, cannot be treated properly. The problem with VwD is very often you don't know a puppy or do is effected until it's too late - i.e. on the operating table for another issue. So whilst it's very often not life-threatening, if something does happen to your dog and it's parents have not been tested for it and it is affected, it can cause complications. It's also, naturally, makes surgeries on the animal more expensive (more blood is required etc).

TBH I have never gone by what the Kennel Cub say. This is the same organisation that let GSDs be bred until they were basically unable to walk, allowed pugs and frenchies to be bred in a manner which results (often) is a very short and very painful life and allowed Daschunds to have backs that are not natural.